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	<title>Comments on: Those spend-crazy Americans</title>
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		<title>By: The economy for the rest of us &#124; Why We Worry</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-49085</link>
		<dc:creator>The economy for the rest of us &#124; Why We Worry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-49085</guid>
		<description>[...] Other view: The Moderate Voice [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Other view: The Moderate Voice [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sushil_yadav</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48771</link>
		<dc:creator>sushil_yadav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Feb 2007 04:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48771</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The link between Mind and Social / Environmental-Issues. &lt;/strong&gt;

The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems besides destroying the environment. All issues are interlinked. Our Minds cannot be peaceful when attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds. Our Minds cannot be peaceful if we destroy Nature. 

&lt;b&gt;Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment.&lt;/b&gt; 

Subject : In a fast society slow emotions become extinct. 
Subject : A thinking mind cannot feel. 
Subject : Scientific/ Industrial/ Financial thinking destroys the planet. 


Emotion is what we experience during gaps in our thinking. 

If there are no gaps there is no emotion. 

Today people are thinking all the time and are mistaking thought (words/ language) for emotion. 


When society switches-over from physical work (agriculture) to mental work (scientific/ industrial/ financial/ fast visuals/ fast words ) the speed of thinking keeps on accelerating and the gaps between thinking go on decreasing. 

There comes a time when there are almost no gaps. 

People become incapable of experiencing/ tolerating gaps. 

Emotion ends. 

Man becomes machine. 



A society that speeds up mentally experiences every mental slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety. 

A ( travelling )society that speeds up physically experiences every physical slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety. 

A society that entertains itself daily experiences every non-entertaining moment as Depression / Anxiety. 



FAST VISUALS /WORDS MAKE SLOW EMOTIONS EXTINCT. 

SCIENTIFIC /INDUSTRIAL /FINANCIAL THINKING DESTROYS EMOTIONAL CIRCUITS. 

A FAST (LARGE) SOCIETY CANNOT FEEL PAIN / REMORSE / EMPATHY. 

A FAST (LARGE) SOCIETY WILL ALWAYS BE CRUEL TO ANIMALS/ TREES/ AIR/ WATER/ LAND AND TO ITSELF. 


To read the complete article please follow either of these links : 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.planetsave.com/ps_mambo/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&amp;Itemid=75&amp;func=view&amp;id=68&amp;catid=6&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;PlanetSave&lt;/a&gt; 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.earthnewswire.com/index.php?option=com_forum&amp;Itemid=89&amp;page=viewtopic&amp;t=11&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;EarthNewsWire&lt;/a&gt; 

sushil_yadav</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The link between Mind and Social / Environmental-Issues. </strong></p>
<p>The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems besides destroying the environment. All issues are interlinked. Our Minds cannot be peaceful when attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds. Our Minds cannot be peaceful if we destroy Nature. </p>
<p><b>Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment.</b> </p>
<p>Subject : In a fast society slow emotions become extinct.<br />
Subject : A thinking mind cannot feel.<br />
Subject : Scientific/ Industrial/ Financial thinking destroys the planet. </p>
<p>Emotion is what we experience during gaps in our thinking. </p>
<p>If there are no gaps there is no emotion. </p>
<p>Today people are thinking all the time and are mistaking thought (words/ language) for emotion. </p>
<p>When society switches-over from physical work (agriculture) to mental work (scientific/ industrial/ financial/ fast visuals/ fast words ) the speed of thinking keeps on accelerating and the gaps between thinking go on decreasing. </p>
<p>There comes a time when there are almost no gaps. </p>
<p>People become incapable of experiencing/ tolerating gaps. </p>
<p>Emotion ends. </p>
<p>Man becomes machine. </p>
<p>A society that speeds up mentally experiences every mental slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety. </p>
<p>A ( travelling )society that speeds up physically experiences every physical slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety. </p>
<p>A society that entertains itself daily experiences every non-entertaining moment as Depression / Anxiety. </p>
<p>FAST VISUALS /WORDS MAKE SLOW EMOTIONS EXTINCT. </p>
<p>SCIENTIFIC /INDUSTRIAL /FINANCIAL THINKING DESTROYS EMOTIONAL CIRCUITS. </p>
<p>A FAST (LARGE) SOCIETY CANNOT FEEL PAIN / REMORSE / EMPATHY. </p>
<p>A FAST (LARGE) SOCIETY WILL ALWAYS BE CRUEL TO ANIMALS/ TREES/ AIR/ WATER/ LAND AND TO ITSELF. </p>
<p>To read the complete article please follow either of these links : </p>
<p><a href="http://www.planetsave.com/ps_mambo/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&amp;Itemid=75&amp;func=view&amp;id=68&amp;catid=6" rel="nofollow">PlanetSave</a> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.earthnewswire.com/index.php?option=com_forum&amp;Itemid=89&amp;page=viewtopic&amp;t=11" rel="nofollow">EarthNewsWire</a> </p>
<p>sushil_yadav</p>
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		<title>By: superdestroyer</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48738</link>
		<dc:creator>superdestroyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Feb 2007 00:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48738</guid>
		<description>I believe that the government model does not count individual stock purchases as a form as savings but as a form of investment.  I think that the number is extremely limited since the number of Americans who would have owned stocks in 1933 would have been very limited.  I also believe that the avaibility of consumer credit just did not exist in 1933 and was very limited up to the 1970&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that the government model does not count individual stock purchases as a form as savings but as a form of investment.  I think that the number is extremely limited since the number of Americans who would have owned stocks in 1933 would have been very limited.  I also believe that the avaibility of consumer credit just did not exist in 1933 and was very limited up to the 1970&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan S.</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48688</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48688</guid>
		<description>With large debts.... Geez, I need to learn to proof read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With large debts&#8230;. Geez, I need to learn to proof read.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan S.</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48686</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48686</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;the negative savings figure does not include pre-tax contributions to retirement plans, such as 401(K)s.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s probably true but, it also will mean that people will probably start putting less money into 401(k)s or else they will be saddled larged debts when/if they retire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>the negative savings figure does not include pre-tax contributions to retirement plans, such as 401(K)s.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s probably true but, it also will mean that people will probably start putting less money into 401(k)s or else they will be saddled larged debts when/if they retire.</p>
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		<title>By: ChuckPrez</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48677</link>
		<dc:creator>ChuckPrez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48677</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Whatever the statistics, Iâ€™ve been disturbed by the atmosphere of rabid consumerism for some time. We need a new gadget every week and bigger and bigger houses. We are still in love with gas guzzling cars and with lavishenss in general.
Our parents were more content with their lot, not only because conditions were different, but because they hadnâ€™t yet lost that sense of â€˜enoughâ€™.
News clips of people in shopping lines actually fighting each other to get their hands on the newest whatever make me cringe.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If only more people would realize this...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Whatever the statistics, Iâ€™ve been disturbed by the atmosphere of rabid consumerism for some time. We need a new gadget every week and bigger and bigger houses. We are still in love with gas guzzling cars and with lavishenss in general.<br />
Our parents were more content with their lot, not only because conditions were different, but because they hadnâ€™t yet lost that sense of â€˜enoughâ€™.<br />
News clips of people in shopping lines actually fighting each other to get their hands on the newest whatever make me cringe.</p></blockquote>
<p>If only more people would realize this&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48651</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48651</guid>
		<description>Whatever the statistics, I&#039;ve been disturbed by the atmosphere of rabid consumerism for some time.  We need a new gadget every week and bigger and bigger houses.  We are still in love with gas guzzling cars and with lavishenss in general.
Our parents were more content with their lot, not only because conditions were different, but because they hadn&#039;t yet lost that sense of &#039;enough&#039;.  
News clips of people in shopping lines actually fighting each other to get their hands on the newest whatever make me cringe.

I long for voices to speak out in favor of acquisition sanity, but they have a hard time being heard over the drumming of marketing ploys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever the statistics, I&#8217;ve been disturbed by the atmosphere of rabid consumerism for some time.  We need a new gadget every week and bigger and bigger houses.  We are still in love with gas guzzling cars and with lavishenss in general.<br />
Our parents were more content with their lot, not only because conditions were different, but because they hadn&#8217;t yet lost that sense of &#8216;enough&#8217;.<br />
News clips of people in shopping lines actually fighting each other to get their hands on the newest whatever make me cringe.</p>
<p>I long for voices to speak out in favor of acquisition sanity, but they have a hard time being heard over the drumming of marketing ploys.</p>
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		<title>By: Tully</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48648</link>
		<dc:creator>Tully</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48648</guid>
		<description>A quick once-over of the figures linked shows an amazing disconnect between the measures, which means it&#039;s time to redefine some measures.

Household retirement accounts have increased considerably over the last several years, while the &quot;savings rate&quot; has been flat or negative. The disconnect is in the savings rate measure, which does indeed exclude pre-tax savings and employer-paid savings. This leaves the apparent contradiction of overall rising &quot;savings&quot; with a flat/negative &quot;savings rate.&quot; Confusing, no? 

The big &quot;hole&quot; in the figures is the 35-44 age demographic, which consistently spends much more than it earns, not a new phenomena. Not too surprising--that&#039;s the &quot;house and kids&quot; and &quot;career-climbing&quot; demo slot. What &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; surprising is that the under-35 demographic are such big savers. That may be a major reflection of inheritance and other wealth transfers from older generations. I&#039;d like to see it broken down farther, but haven&#039;t found the figures yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A quick once-over of the figures linked shows an amazing disconnect between the measures, which means it&#8217;s time to redefine some measures.</p>
<p>Household retirement accounts have increased considerably over the last several years, while the &#8220;savings rate&#8221; has been flat or negative. The disconnect is in the savings rate measure, which does indeed exclude pre-tax savings and employer-paid savings. This leaves the apparent contradiction of overall rising &#8220;savings&#8221; with a flat/negative &#8220;savings rate.&#8221; Confusing, no? </p>
<p>The big &#8220;hole&#8221; in the figures is the 35-44 age demographic, which consistently spends much more than it earns, not a new phenomena. Not too surprising&#8211;that&#8217;s the &#8220;house and kids&#8221; and &#8220;career-climbing&#8221; demo slot. What <em>is</em> surprising is that the under-35 demographic are such big savers. That may be a major reflection of inheritance and other wealth transfers from older generations. I&#8217;d like to see it broken down farther, but haven&#8217;t found the figures yet.</p>
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		<title>By: PatHMV</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48641</link>
		<dc:creator>PatHMV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48641</guid>
		<description>Good data, mikkel, thanks. I&#039;m not yet convinced that the Investors.com article is accurate on the subject of whether the Savings Rate calculations includes retirement fund savings or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good data, mikkel, thanks. I&#8217;m not yet convinced that the Investors.com article is accurate on the subject of whether the Savings Rate calculations includes retirement fund savings or not.</p>
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		<title>By: mikkel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48639</link>
		<dc:creator>mikkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48639</guid>
		<description>Pat, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;ct=res&amp;cd=2&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.unt.edu%2Fgovdocs%2Fcrs%2F%2Fdata%2F2006%2Fupl-meta-crs-9224%2FRL30922_2006May22.pdf%3FPHPSESSID%3D152e5b145d32b92b1ab2d53e7a9f8b17&amp;ei=7I3DRZ7SMKOajgHE2ei6Dg&amp;usg=__6WXN8nX62gBu3xkl8Qw2SF1qMpo=&amp;sig2=jge1CKBr0_mcvFlbVGQd4g&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this link&lt;/a&gt; has some pretty in depth information -- to me one of the key things to note is the difference between mean and median...and how many people don&#039;t have &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; retirement plan. 

All in all, on a societal level I think we&#039;ll be OK as long as we continue growing. The big question is whether our growth is sustainable and foreign countries keep buying our bonds. A weeks ago there was a jitter in the market because new US treasury bonds had less interest than expected -- I haven&#039;t heard anything about this since though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat, <a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;ct=res&amp;cd=2&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.library.unt.edu%2Fgovdocs%2Fcrs%2F%2Fdata%2F2006%2Fupl-meta-crs-9224%2FRL30922_2006May22.pdf%3FPHPSESSID%3D152e5b145d32b92b1ab2d53e7a9f8b17&amp;ei=7I3DRZ7SMKOajgHE2ei6Dg&amp;usg=__6WXN8nX62gBu3xkl8Qw2SF1qMpo=&amp;sig2=jge1CKBr0_mcvFlbVGQd4g" rel="nofollow">this link</a> has some pretty in depth information &#8212; to me one of the key things to note is the difference between mean and median&#8230;and how many people don&#8217;t have <i>any</i> retirement plan. </p>
<p>All in all, on a societal level I think we&#8217;ll be OK as long as we continue growing. The big question is whether our growth is sustainable and foreign countries keep buying our bonds. A weeks ago there was a jitter in the market because new US treasury bonds had less interest than expected &#8212; I haven&#8217;t heard anything about this since though.</p>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48632</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48632</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s interesting, Pat, and a bit less depressing so I hope you are right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s interesting, Pat, and a bit less depressing so I hope you are right.</p>
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		<title>By: PatHMV</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48627</link>
		<dc:creator>PatHMV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48627</guid>
		<description>Maybe not. According to &lt;a&gt;this article at Investors.com&lt;/a&gt;, the negative savings figure does not include &lt;i&gt;pre-tax&lt;/i&gt; contributions to retirement plans, such as 401(K)s. &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/2007/02/02/the-myth-of-a-low-savings-rate/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Don Surber&lt;/a&gt; at the DailyMail.com asserts that the &quot;savings rate&quot; began to decline in 1977, the year before 401(K) plans came about.

I&#039;m poring through the details at the Bureau of Economic Analysis (which provides the data for the Savings Rate), and I&#039;ve e-mailed them asking for clarification, to verify the Investors.com assertions. It makes sense from what I&#039;ve seen so far, but I haven&#039;t yet pinpointed exactly how the BEA measures &quot;personal income&quot; to verify whether it includes such retirement savings or not. Investors.com doesn&#039;t provide any source for its assertion that retirement plan contributions are not calculated in the rate.

It is correct that Americans have trillions of dollars saved in retirement plans. In 2005, according to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ici.org/pdf/per12-01.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Investment Company Institute&lt;/a&gt; [pdf], the average 401(k) account balance for all Americans in their 60s with any amount at all in a 401(K) plan was $140,957, and for all those in their 20s, it was $24,169.

According to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/pdf/2006SummitFinalReport.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this Department of Labor report&lt;/a&gt;, Americans had about $11.5 trillion in assets in individual and employment-based retirement systems in 2005. Note that the chart on page 4 of this report seems to contradict Don Shurber&#039;s assertion about when the savings rate began to decline. It appears to have peaked in about 1980/81, before beginning a fairly steady decline in about 1995.

I&#039;ll post more data here or at Stubborn Facts when I find it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe not. According to <a>this article at Investors.com</a>, the negative savings figure does not include <i>pre-tax</i> contributions to retirement plans, such as 401(K)s. <a href="http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/2007/02/02/the-myth-of-a-low-savings-rate/" rel="nofollow">Don Surber</a> at the DailyMail.com asserts that the &#8220;savings rate&#8221; began to decline in 1977, the year before 401(K) plans came about.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m poring through the details at the Bureau of Economic Analysis (which provides the data for the Savings Rate), and I&#8217;ve e-mailed them asking for clarification, to verify the Investors.com assertions. It makes sense from what I&#8217;ve seen so far, but I haven&#8217;t yet pinpointed exactly how the BEA measures &#8220;personal income&#8221; to verify whether it includes such retirement savings or not. Investors.com doesn&#8217;t provide any source for its assertion that retirement plan contributions are not calculated in the rate.</p>
<p>It is correct that Americans have trillions of dollars saved in retirement plans. In 2005, according to the <a href="http://www.ici.org/pdf/per12-01.pdf" rel="nofollow">Investment Company Institute</a> [pdf], the average 401(k) account balance for all Americans in their 60s with any amount at all in a 401(K) plan was $140,957, and for all those in their 20s, it was $24,169.</p>
<p>According to <a href="http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/pdf/2006SummitFinalReport.pdf" rel="nofollow">this Department of Labor report</a>, Americans had about $11.5 trillion in assets in individual and employment-based retirement systems in 2005. Note that the chart on page 4 of this report seems to contradict Don Shurber&#8217;s assertion about when the savings rate began to decline. It appears to have peaked in about 1980/81, before beginning a fairly steady decline in about 1995.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll post more data here or at Stubborn Facts when I find it.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael van der Galien</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10644/those-spend-crazy-americans/comment-page-1/#comment-48620</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael van der Galien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/economy/those-spend-crazy-americans/#comment-48620</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Like I said, there are no limits. Limits are for chumps (pre-modern chumps). Except credit limits. Thankfully, they keep raising them. Untilâ€¦

Americans are spending more than they have and their country is doing the same. One day, one day soon, this recklessness may destroy them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

O, I agree on this with you Michael. Credit, credit, credit. 

It will cause big problems for America, this fake situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Like I said, there are no limits. Limits are for chumps (pre-modern chumps). Except credit limits. Thankfully, they keep raising them. Untilâ€¦</p>
<p>Americans are spending more than they have and their country is doing the same. One day, one day soon, this recklessness may destroy them.</p></blockquote>
<p>O, I agree on this with you Michael. Credit, credit, credit. </p>
<p>It will cause big problems for America, this fake situation.</p>
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