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* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
And yet the government of Israel likes to draw on the spectre of the Holocaust to justify whatever policy they choose. You know what, if the shoe fits…
* Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor
Do the Wiccans get their own state too? How about the Scientologists? How about the Palestinians?
* Applying double standards by requiring Israel to behave in a manner not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
How about not pretending that Israel can do no wrong. Holly said:
Of course, Israel behaves far better than most other democratic nations.
* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
While I think comparing things to the Nazis is a simile that has been brutally overused, I think this statement basically says that you CAN’T compare Israeli tactics to those the Nazis employed without being anti-semitic. This is absurd. The using of containment walls spliting palestinian areas, denying the populace garbage removal and “targeted attacks” that demolish the house of the entire family of a palestinian terrorist, castigating the entire family for the crime of one, aren’t exactly tactics of the sisters of mercy. The walls especially remind one of the Nazis.
Yes you could have a long, long debate about wether this or that action is comparable to Nazis or not. Some tactics certainly remind me of it, but even in the case that not a single thing the state of Israel does is like Nazi tactics, using a comparison is not automatically anti-semitic.
Applying double standards by requiring Israel to behave in a manner not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
Again not automatically anti-semitic. Hypocritical maybe, but not anti-semitic. Many people have a lack of perspective and forget that Israel is in a situation not faced by other western nations. They merely see that Israel does things that other nations we consider civilized and within the sphere of the western world doesn’t do within their borders, and says “That’s awful! No other nation does that!” (by no other nation one usually means no other nation one holds to western standards). In this situation people don’t step back and think that if the US or any other western nation had to face what Israel does, they might do the same thing. This is certainly missguided, but not anti-semitic. Anti-semitic would be if the reasoning followed “That’s awful! No other nation does that! It must be because they’re JEWS!”.
Anti-semitism exists, and has grown thanks to the Israeli conflict, though there are people who would find the way to hate jews no matter what the hell they did. Still, I think the term anti-semitism must be used in the same category of racism, it’s a serious charge that should not be made lightly. I think that, rather than making rules of “if you say this you MUST be anti-semitic” one has to take things somewhat case by case. More complicated, and more honest too.
I see a problem with this alleged example of anti-semitism:
“* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel”
Firstly, if we take this in the strict meaning of the words, it’s a strawman argument. Even the most strident critics wouldn’t accuse, say, Jossi Beilin of being responsible for Israel’s actions today.
Secondly, in a more loosely interpretation, this begs the question: Why shouldn’t Jews be treated the same way as all other people? Americans are held responsible for electing Bush and allowing the Iraq desaster to happen. The US held all French responsible for the ‘obstructive’ foreign policy of FRance. We Germans are still held responsible for the Holocaust (I have no problem with that). By being part of a people, you’re sharing the responsibility for the actions of your democratically elected government (soemtimes even for an dictatorical government). Your country, right or wrong. On a personal level, one may find absolution by pointing at resistance against the critizised actions, but it would put critics at a serious disadvantage if they would have to weigh every single case individually. Putting blame on the people of a country for it’s governments actions is a quite common public policy. Why should this be sign of prejudice or discrimination?
Ok, maybe your main point is, blame should only be put on Israelis, not on all Jews. That’s a point. But not a very convincing one, regarding the fact that the overwhelming majority of Jews see Israel as their safe heaven and support it financially and politically. Show me a single organisation or Lobby of foreign Jews that seriously distanced itself from the state of Israel! So, why should it be a sign of prejudice to hold Jews collectively responsible for the actions of their own state?
Sry, David, but this looks to me as a way of handicapping critics by limiting them to critizising only directly responsible politicians, ignoring that it’s the people who put those leaders into place and that, in most cases, the government couldn’t act in this way without widespread public support. Israel’s supporters don’t prescind from blaming other nations collectively, too. Is this always based on an anti-French, anti-German, anti-whatever stance? Don’t misunderstand me, I agree that such attacks are based in many cases on prejudices. But I don’t think evidence justifies making this a general rule.
David – Spend some time in Israel as I have and every category of anti-semitism you have outlined is applied to those dirty arabs and Palestinians. The ugliest most hateful speech I have heard in my life has come from the mouths of Israelis. Anti-semitism is absolutely wrong but so is the other side of the coin. Lets talk about both kinds of hate speech.
jdledell- I have experienced this phenomena here in this country, as well. My brother-in-law and his wife would be quite happy if all muslims were deported back to where they came from, and after 9/11 held all of them responsible. How do you combat that level of prejudice??
Speaking for myself only, I spend a lot more time criticizing US policies than those of other countries, because I CARE a whole lot more about the US. The same is true re Israel. I fervently want to see Israel thrive, so I hate to see it adopt policies that are, in the long run, self-destructive.
There is also a victims’ psychology at work. Past traumas to a race or nationality make the survivors justify anything that appears to serve self-preservation. Unfortunately, short term goals may serve to undermine long term goals, and the latter perspective is too seldom utilized. I don’t blame the descendents of slaves or the descendents of holocaust survivors for being super sensitive to racism or anti-semitism, respectively. I do think, however, that this sensitivity can lead to blindly accenpting anything and everything that appears to redress past wrongs. Not even victims should abandon reasoned choices and accountability for actions in the present.
I take exception to a few parts of that article…
And yet the government of Israel likes to draw on the spectre of the Holocaust to justify whatever policy they choose. You know what, if the shoe fits…
Do the Wiccans get their own state too? How about the Scientologists? How about the Palestinians?
How about not pretending that Israel can do no wrong. Holly said:
How do you plan on proving that?
The state of Israel is just like any other nation. It has a fallible government that is run by fallible human beings.
The holocaust and years of other forms of anti-Semitism don’t excuse the actions of the government of Israel.
“Do the Wiccans get their own state too? How about the Scientologists? How about the Palestinians?”
No, no, yes (Do the Jews? yes).
Now, can someone with a keener grasp than Chris of conceptual distinctions tell us how I came to that determination?
While I think comparing things to the Nazis is a simile that has been brutally overused, I think this statement basically says that you CAN’T compare Israeli tactics to those the Nazis employed without being anti-semitic. This is absurd. The using of containment walls spliting palestinian areas, denying the populace garbage removal and “targeted attacks” that demolish the house of the entire family of a palestinian terrorist, castigating the entire family for the crime of one, aren’t exactly tactics of the sisters of mercy. The walls especially remind one of the Nazis.
Yes you could have a long, long debate about wether this or that action is comparable to Nazis or not. Some tactics certainly remind me of it, but even in the case that not a single thing the state of Israel does is like Nazi tactics, using a comparison is not automatically anti-semitic.
aghh!! The quote devil! Sorry about that.
I see a problem with this alleged example of anti-semitism:
“* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel”
Firstly, if we take this in the strict meaning of the words, it’s a strawman argument. Even the most strident critics wouldn’t accuse, say, Jossi Beilin of being responsible for Israel’s actions today.
Secondly, in a more loosely interpretation, this begs the question: Why shouldn’t Jews be treated the same way as all other people? Americans are held responsible for electing Bush and allowing the Iraq desaster to happen. The US held all French responsible for the ‘obstructive’ foreign policy of FRance. We Germans are still held responsible for the Holocaust (I have no problem with that). By being part of a people, you’re sharing the responsibility for the actions of your democratically elected government (soemtimes even for an dictatorical government). Your country, right or wrong. On a personal level, one may find absolution by pointing at resistance against the critizised actions, but it would put critics at a serious disadvantage if they would have to weigh every single case individually. Putting blame on the people of a country for it’s governments actions is a quite common public policy. Why should this be sign of prejudice or discrimination?
Ok, maybe your main point is, blame should only be put on Israelis, not on all Jews. That’s a point. But not a very convincing one, regarding the fact that the overwhelming majority of Jews see Israel as their safe heaven and support it financially and politically. Show me a single organisation or Lobby of foreign Jews that seriously distanced itself from the state of Israel! So, why should it be a sign of prejudice to hold Jews collectively responsible for the actions of their own state?
Sry, David, but this looks to me as a way of handicapping critics by limiting them to critizising only directly responsible politicians, ignoring that it’s the people who put those leaders into place and that, in most cases, the government couldn’t act in this way without widespread public support. Israel’s supporters don’t prescind from blaming other nations collectively, too. Is this always based on an anti-French, anti-German, anti-whatever stance? Don’t misunderstand me, I agree that such attacks are based in many cases on prejudices. But I don’t think evidence justifies making this a general rule.
David – Spend some time in Israel as I have and every category of anti-semitism you have outlined is applied to those dirty arabs and Palestinians. The ugliest most hateful speech I have heard in my life has come from the mouths of Israelis. Anti-semitism is absolutely wrong but so is the other side of the coin. Lets talk about both kinds of hate speech.
“Lets talk about both kinds of hate speech.”
Good idea. Why only focus on anti-semitism? The same mechanisms are at work in all cases of prejudice and discrimination.
jdledell- I have experienced this phenomena here in this country, as well. My brother-in-law and his wife would be quite happy if all muslims were deported back to where they came from, and after 9/11 held all of them responsible. How do you combat that level of prejudice??
A side note or two:
Speaking for myself only, I spend a lot more time criticizing US policies than those of other countries, because I CARE a whole lot more about the US. The same is true re Israel. I fervently want to see Israel thrive, so I hate to see it adopt policies that are, in the long run, self-destructive.
There is also a victims’ psychology at work. Past traumas to a race or nationality make the survivors justify anything that appears to serve self-preservation. Unfortunately, short term goals may serve to undermine long term goals, and the latter perspective is too seldom utilized. I don’t blame the descendents of slaves or the descendents of holocaust survivors for being super sensitive to racism or anti-semitism, respectively. I do think, however, that this sensitivity can lead to blindly accenpting anything and everything that appears to redress past wrongs. Not even victims should abandon reasoned choices and accountability for actions in the present.
domajot: excellent points, particularly about the way that the hypersensitivity can be self-destructive.