Indians invented agriculture (including selective breeding, crop rotation and fertilizer), writing and mathematics (including zero, the basis for all math). For every one pyramid the Egyptians built, the Maya built 15. Indians explored the and settled the entire continents of North and South America during the same period of time in which Europeans were essentially confined to Europe. As for the military, Indians (despite losing 90% of their population to disease) still held off the European conquest for 400 years. The Mongols didn’t start out with metall, either; they got it from the Chinese.

“Burning women for witches and human sacrifice are not the same.”

I see. So when white europeans torture someone to death because “God demands it” that is far more advanced than if some Indians torture someone to death because “God demands it.” Your ethnocentric definition of “advanced” puts me in mind of a Douglas Adams quote, “Man has always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much…the wheel, New York, wars and so on…But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man…for precisely the same reason.â€?

“And my overall point is that while its very tragic, I can only get so worked up over something that happened before ancestors I’m too young to have met were even born. I can learn about it and I do, but that’s all.”

Which leads back to your initial statement that all this is “merely history” to you and my response that those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it, a point I think should be particularly well-taken given (no offense intended) your rather spotty knowledge of history (for example, confusing the Aztecs with a neolithic culture).

And while not all indian cultures took part in human sacrifice, I used the Aztecs as an example. They are regarded as one of the most advanced native american cultures, well beyond those in North America in terms of accomplishments and structure. And I refer to indians as “Stone Age” because their tools were made of stone, bone and wood, not metal.

Burning women for witches and human sacrifice are not the same. One is an execution for a crime, albeit a stupid superstitious one, the other is a purely religous act. Europeans by that time were well past sacrificing to the gods for a good harvest. Live sacrifices is regarded just about everywhere as an early stage of religon common to primitive cultures.

We’ll never know for sure if the Mongols can beat the Lakota, but given the empire they set up and the quality of the opposition they overcame, and the fact they used METAL, my money is on Genghis Khan.

And my overall point is that while its very tragic, I can only get so worked up over something that happened before ancestors I’m too young to have met were even born. I can learn about it and I do, but that’s all.

Uhm, I was talking about Europe in the 1500′s, hardly the “industrial age.”

“I don’t think that makes them more advanced.”

Right, because only guns make you “more advanced.”

“And there are some other things I usually attribute to a less advanced culture, like human sacrifice and mistaking foreigners for gods or spirits.”

Well, sure, since ALL Indian tribes practiced human sacrifice, every single solitary one of them. Mel Gibson said so. And who was burning widowed old women at the stake for being witches around this time? But I think I understand your definition of “advanced” now; anything white people did in 1492 was “advanced”; anything Indians did was “Stone Age”. Of course, I still have no idea what this has to do with the ethical or moral justification for taking all of the Indians land…
“Also, I’m pretty sure the mongols were the best horse warriors the world has ever known.”

Tell you what, get me an equal number of Mongols vs. an equal number of Comanche or Lakota. See who walks away.

“If you are unable to stop them, you enter the history books. Its just what happens.”

Soooo…what here? Indians should just shut up their whining and become extinct? The US government is under no obligation to keep its treaty obligations? What precisely is your point here?

Well, one of many many examples is Hernado Cortes’ capture of the Aztec capital with 600 men. He was to put it lightly, very outnumbered. This was before disease had ravaged them. Later, after splitting his forces to put off a spanish force sent to arrest him for exceeding his orders, he was forced out of Tenochtitlan only to return with 1000 men and complete his conquering of a nation of 5 million.

I’ll certainly admit that native americans lived cleaner happier lives than europeans, but they also led cleaner happier lives than industrial age England. I don’t think that makes them more advanced. And there are some other things I usually attribute to a less advanced culture, like human sacrifice and mistaking foreigners for gods or spirits. Also, I’m pretty sure the mongols were the best horse warriors the world has ever known.

All this has to do with human nature. Those who can take resources they feel they need do so when the opportunity presents itself. I’m speaking in terms of nations here. If you are unable to stop them, you enter the history books. Its just what happens.

Really? That’s funny seeing as how North and South America had a larger population than Europe in the 15th Century, the largest cities on Earth were in the Western Hemisphere, the largest land empire on Earth was in the Western Hemisphere, and the Indians ate better, were healthier and lived longer than Europeans at the time. And how exactly was European military “hugely dominant” “disease or not”? Try having 90% of your population killed off and then fight off an invasion. And even then it took Europeans 400 years to subdue all the “primitive” tribes. And, as I pointed out before, the Indians bows and arrows had a better range and were more accurate than comporable hand-held firearms of the time. And the Plains Indians became the greatest horse warriors in human history. Besides which, even if the Indians were all “stone age” buck-naked primitives living in caves, what does that have to with the Europeans taking all their land?

There were no “stone age cultures” in North America in 1492. Just so you know. And bows and arrows had a longer range and were more accurate that the firearms of 1492. If not for smallpox and other diseases, European invaders would likely have been wiped out by the Indians (and they still almost were, even with the diseases).

And you were the one that dismissed this as “merely history,” not me.

First off, I am not saying we shouldn’t learn about history. I’m a huge fan of it. Second, learning about it doesn’t prevent you from repeating it. Examples:

- After WWI the French created a trench system so massive it would deter attacks from Germany forever. They used the lessons of the Great War to dictate strategy. This failed to prevent a German attack and caused them to be overrun in short order because it didn’t take into account the change in offensive technologies

- Conversion from a worldly engaged international policy to a conservative “we know best and work best alone” policy has preceeded the downfall of all great empires. China, Roman, England, you name it. Yet that cycle continues unabated

- Stone age cultures that sit on land wanted by a more militarily advanced culture are wiped out 100% of the time. This also continues to this day.

History is just history. The fundamental nature of man, inbred in us by nature itself, assures that we will continue to fight and struggle and grow to the best of our ability even if that leads to catastrophe.

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it…

CP and Local Crank: I just don’t have much to add after our discussion yesterday.

you needn’t say more, C. you more than said enough!
the smokeys would make a good fall trip, IMO (i love the changing tree colors in the fall and the blue ridge parkway…A-1 i hear at that time of year)

No one alive has lived thru those events, and it is merely history to me.

CP and Local Crank: I just don’t have much to add after our discussion yesterday.

Anyway: I agree with Patrick… that also explains why the entire contemporary problem with native americans is still largely being ignored… talking about it confronts one automatically with the ugly truth of history.