“But really what would you do if unemployment where 50-60% and your family was starvign”
Reports say, unemployment is much lower in Kurdistan. It is even said they have some sort of economical boom there.

So, I really thing the main reason for the desertions is that the troops don’t think it’s not in their interest to play cop for the Sunnis and Shiites.

We should try to help Iraqi refugees as much as possible, and insist on signs of political and military progress from Maliki. At least he has finally come out against al Sadr.

Why is it taking 2-3 years to turn Kurds into Iraqis?

Maybe because the Kurds haven’t really been a part of Iraq since the end of the first gulf war except on the maps? Iraq, and the middle east in general, cannot be seen through the same eyes as the Western nations. They have a history vastly different than ours; one with it’s own hatreds, predjudices, and cultural heritage. We got into this mess because we either ignored that history or were ignorant of it.

And lets not forget about the fac that the map of the middle east was not drawn by its inhabitants, but rather by culturally clueless European generals/politicians at the end of WWI… might just have a smidgen to do with our current mess.

I live in Oklahoma, I don’t understand the people of Los Angeles like I do my neighbors. If they need something, they are still Americans. I’m going to help. I’m pretty sure this is the case all over the free world. Big storms and bad weather in Europe, everyone pitches in and they all get through it. Fires in Australia, everyone sends help. Japanese earthquake, US Search and Rescue dogs go to help. You mean to tell me that the Kurds in the Iraqi Army and in Iraqi uniform, would help their neighbor, but not their countrymen. I thought we were doing the training over there. That’s not what I learned in the Marines. I learned that the total is greater than the parts. Individuals are less effective than teams. So why isn’t this being instilled in these fine young recruits? Where is their Officer Corps being trained? It should be Quantico. Marine Officer’s would have never stood for this attitude. Where are their NCOs trained? Or is this the typical Third-World Rabble this region thinks is an army?

If the Iraqi Army is as it appears, a rag-tag group of individuals, and is full of criminals with an axe to grind, that’s where we are missing the boat. This isn’t about Troop Surge, this should be about intense, focused training that breaks down the ideas of individuality first. Train these folks to be Iraqis first, everything else second. Give them a focus to be proud. Then make it worth their while to follow the rules. It appears we need to send a large number of Marine Drill Instructors, while we are at it. Sixteen weeks is all it takes to take an Okie and turn him into an American, Texans, may take longer. Why is it taking 2-3 years to turn Kurds into Iraqis? Surely, they are much smarter than Texans…..

1.) Iran holds the keys. They use oil money to destablize this region. So stop buying their oil till they work to stablize Iraq and not undermine the coalition troops over there.

2.) Saudi could easily increase production of oil by 3 million bbls. Iran sells 2.5 million per day. The price of oil would actually go down because Iran would sneak some oil on the market but not enough to allow them to fund terror.

3.) With no money comes no funding comes no terrorist that are well funded and well supported. I give you HAMAS and the suicide bombers in Israel. AS soon as Saddam was overthrown and the 25,000 dollars a year going to the families of suicide bombers………the bombing stopped and Palestine and Israel have TRIED to work things out.

Money is the key. Stop the money…..which means stop IRAN.

GWB is not kidding when he says IRAN is the monster of the MIDDLE east and everyone knows this. They are funding Syria, Lebanon and Iraqi terror and destabilization.

IRAN is the key. Always has been…..Stop buying their oil and encourage them to work for peace and this might just end up in a manageable area.

The anger I hear from both sides of the aisle is a fabricated indignation that “these people” had better take control and stop relying on us. They simply can’t. And a year or two or twelve from now we’ll be pointing fingers at them and each other for not “winning” the “war” in “Iraq”. We destroyed it. Utterly and completely. Like the former Serbia, we’ll be talking about the former Iraq.

At this point a unified, non-sectarian Iraq is a pipedream. We have destroyed the fundamental precepts of a modern nation state, so people have had to rely on baser loyalties to survive. Accept this and Iraq becomes a much easier analytical problem.

From an ethical stand point, sure they promised to do X. But really what would you do if unemployment where 50-60% and your family was starvign and there was this job that promised cash and its all you could get. Its easy to judge rom a distance, but until I walke da mile in their shoes I probably wouldn’t

The Kurds did join a Kurdish army. It was incorporated into a fictional Irish state with the Kurds and everyone else knowing were their loyalties lay. Much of the army is made of militias of various parties.

This was not a secret. You can not simply changing this by declaring that it is Iraqi. The world does not work on magic were you can make things what you want simply by naming them.

Your way of thinking belongs to a different millennium.

As to Rich’s comment: In many instances, Knight Ridder reporters were out ahead of what was really going on in Iraq well before the NYTimes, WaPo, CNN and other mainstream media pillars started getting it right. Knight Ridder (where Joe and I toiled in the past) has ceased to exist. But some of its better reporters and stringers have gone over to McClatchy, which while not a media household name, has kicked ass over and over again in reporting on the war.

These scoops have included a personal favorite: How the U.S. and Iraqi governments intentionally lowball civilian death figures and since summer have prohibited the Baghdad Central Morgue, a barometer of the toll of sectarian violence, to issue any fatality statistics.

Yup, crystal clear.

Somebody’s not doing their job very well…I just cant tell who.

The best we can do is run the clock a bit and get a likely very temporary drop in violence. In which case, barring a draft, we may as well figure the best rapid exit and let the cards fall where they may.

yes, that’s how I see it as well. Sadly.

As to ‘the Kurds should stand up they signed up for X.’ Um, not really, not in more than lip service, something no different than many other Arab sectarian based units of the army.

That’s understandable and all, but that does not make it ‘correct’.

As to why they are going at all? Easy enough, the pay off we offer is protection (or at least running interfearance) from Turkey and Iran. Both parties have shelled Kurdistan and the Turks have actually invaded across the border a few times. Turkey is up for elections soon, and both parties are being called on to do something about the Kurdish militants who are causing such trouble in Turkey. So Kurdistan trades mercenaries for time/peace.

Yup, I agree. That is a very real problem for the Kurds.

My point is not that I do not understand the Kurds, I’m simply noting that they ‘should’ act differently, at least in my opinion ánd that it is an incredibly bad sign for Bush’s plans.

The U.S. has to solve the issues, but it cannot or at least will not.

The other piece that has no been mentioned yet (afaik) is that the Iraqi officers often keep rather large numbers of phantom troops on the rolls. Remember Iraqi military operators on a more or less fuedal pay/equippage system where in the commander is paid for the troops he has, and he then distrubutes pay. Stuffing the rolls is an scam old as history itself. Thus, if the 80%? desertion rate, or whatever it exactly is, does seem a bit high. It may refelct a commander covering his own butt now that those phantom troops are needed.

As to ‘the Kurds should stand up they signed up for X.’ Um, not really, not in more than lip service, something no different than many other Arab sectarian based units of the army. Kurdistan is an independent country in all but name. They fly their own flag, all govt. buildings mention Kurdistan… not Iraq. They are conducting a fair bit of their own foreign affairs. No Iraqi army units may set foot in Kurdistan, etc. As of the last election at least 80% of the populce opted for ther own state. And lets not forget culture and language diferences.

As to why they are going at all? Easy enough, the pay off we offer is protection (or at least running interfearance) from Turkey and Iran. Both parties have shelled Kurdistan and the Turks have actually invaded across the border a few times. Turkey is up for elections soon, and both parties are being called on to do something about the Kurdish militants who are causing such trouble in Turkey. So Kurdistan trades mercenaries for time/peace.

As to what this means for the escalation plan. Not good. Despite thinking the shrub is more a preznut, then president, this plan actually had some hope too it. It was very late does of relality(probably too late) but might have set the stage for some sort of softer landing. If this desertion is widespread though, well.. So much for that, really. The best we can do is run the clock a bit and get a likely very temporary drop in violence. In which case, barring a draft, we may as well figure the best rapid exit and let the cards fall where they may.

“The current draft of the proposed Iraqi petroleum bill vests decisions in the central government, as the Sunni Arabs had wanted. The Kurds had argued for a more decentralized system.” (From Informed Comment)

So the Kurds are expected to get involved in the secterian bloodbath of two arch-enemies in order to help secure and stabilize a government which is in the process of creating an economic and political system contrary to their interests?

Yes, sounds like a real sound foundation for success…in the Bush administration.