Comments on: America in the Middle East, 1776 to the Present

By: Gospel Planet » America in the Middle East, 1776 to the Present

Gospel Planet » America in the Middle East, 1776 to the Present — Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:13:24 +0000

[...] Original post by The Moderate Voice [...]

By: Kim Ritter

Kim Ritter — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:23:14 +0000

Its ok to encourage democracy- but most of the time our efforts seem geared more towards opening markets or protecting areas of the world that have a strategic interest to us. We seem to stink at nation-building, especially when those we are liberating aren’t interested in what we’re selling, and more than we’d want to live by Islamic law. Nations need to choose democracy on their own-not because it works for us.

By: Dave Schuler

Dave Schuler — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:25:04 +0000

Y'all might be interested in a post of mine from a while ago on the first official contact between the United States and Saudi Arabia. It was by FDR during WWII right after the Yalta conference.

By: Laimdota

Laimdota — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:02:49 +0000

It’s absolutely true that most Americans are ill informed, both about the Middle East and our own history. This is a clear and present danger, as it leads to blindly buying into the latest political message from political pundits. Politicians ‘market’ their intentions, and we don’t have a ‘consumer’s report’ of our own knowledge to evaluate the message.

By: Lynx

Lynx — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:57:59 +0000

I saw the author interviewed on the Daily Show. He said that he wrote the book because he kept seeing books by the title “Britain in the Middle East” “France in Africa” etc. but no “United States in the Middle East” and that considering the investment, we should know the history.

Personally I think that the times the US has been most successful at spreading western values is when they used consumerism, not bombs. Can anyone tell me that when they were young “trust me, I know what’s best” sounded at all convincing? What if that were accompanied by being beaten with a belt? No, the way to westernize the world is to get it to buy into (literally) one of it’s fundamental traits. Freedom? No. Buying! CocaCola, McDonalds, MTV, bad sitcoms and reality shows. Yes I know it’s sad to spread anti-culture, but it works very well. Pop culture spreads like wildfire, and the liberty (and debauchery) it carries in the package is a lot more tempting than Black Hawk helicopters “liberating” you to smithereens.

By: Rudi

Rudi — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:28:41 +0000

Maybe Kagan is using the book to justify the Neocon philosphy. We also had a war with the British – War of 1812 – maybe the British are really are enemy like the Arabs. The author was on Charlie Rose or another talk show. I don’t recall him as a NeoCON apologist.

By: Jim S

Jim S — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:02:27 +0000

Just because we do have a history of having been active in the Middle East it doesn’t mean that an incurious, not that well read former governor of Texas who goes with his gut over advice from more experienced people than himself bases any of his decisions on that knowledge.

By: Jason Shapiro

Jason Shapiro — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:53:33 +0000

Michael, c’mon, “It may have been handled wrongly…?” You cannot so blithely separate intentions from acts. I’m getting hints of that old refrain of “Just listen to us and you will have a better life…” As far as my reading of history tells me, a huge amount of bloodshed and destruction has occurred because of someone’s half-baked ideas about “positively influencing” someone else. Pick any period in history and I bet I can find an example of someone or some group who was/were absolutely sincere in their unique version of “truth” and who felt this great need to “enlighten” the world. The Crusades and the Thirty Years’ War are two of my favorites but you may have some of your own. Societies evolve in their own ways and at their own rates. My advice to the would-be “enlighteners” is when the feeling to enlighten strikes, have a drink, take a nap, spend an hour on the stairmaster, work on your own garden, whatever. Just leave the other guy’s garden alone. To be perfectly clear, I’m no pacifist. If you are attacked, then you do you best to smash the other guy – I just don’t believe in poking around where you haven’t been invited.

By: Michael van der Galien

Michael van der Galien — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:10:06 +0000

Also, personally I don’t think that encouraging democracy (through peaceful means), technology and liberalism is a bad thing.

It may have been handled wrongly, but the general idea of trying to influence them in a positive manner, is a good one imo.

By: Michael van der Galien

Michael van der Galien — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:08:56 +0000

Shaun: I have to admit that I have never read it. Shame on me, I know. Promise: will do it asap. I’ve got a lot of books to read after the exams, but I will put this one on top of the list (and I also want to read something by O’Brien as you advised me to do).

Jason: of course it is not an ‘excuse’ to continue persuing bad policies. But… it is interesting as to be able to explain today’s situation better and to see today’s situation in its historical context.

By: Jason Shapiro

Jason Shapiro — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:45:15 +0000

Shaun Mullen is absolutely correct. Lawrence had overwhelming personal problems but his observations about the Middle East were clear-eyed and prescient. Oren’s book also seems to be worthwhile, with a couple of caveats:
1. An explanation is not an excuse. Irrespective of whether the White House cabal was acting consistently or inconsistently with reference to 250 years of American foreign policy, the invasion and occupation of Iraq was illegal, ill-conceived, poorly executed, and grievously misdirected. The “gee whiz, everyone else did it” argument does not balance a trillion dollars and tens of thousands of dead and maimed.
2. “Power, Faith, and Fantasy” is a terrific title because it certainly seems to capture the operative principles under which this administration operates but maybe it is time for America to stop acting like a closed-minded officious international missionary. Is there any group or place on this planet that the wild-eyed Protestant zealots who found themselves in America did not try to “reform?” Barbarism. violence, and despotism are indeed in the eye of the beholder.

By: Shaun Mullen

Shaun Mullen — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:48:46 +0000

T.E. Lawrence’s “The Seven Pillars of Wisdom” should be required reading for every U.S. officer assigned to Iraq. It is, for my money, the great 20th century book on colonialist, er . . . interactions with Arabs. The movie on which it was based (”Lawrence of Arabia”) ain’t bad either.

A quote that resonate powerfully today in Washington and Baghdad:

â€œAll men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.â€?