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However that being said.

This is taken directly from GWB’s speech to congress after 9/11. I want you to notice that nothing has changed. HE told us he was going to use secret, covert operations and he meant it. Most Covert operations are ILLEGAL in someway in some country. Thats why they are secret and covert. I for one have zero problems with the FISA and NSA wiretapping program because unlike you…..I believe that the USA is after the BAD guys not after my affair with my office secretary. Once the war is over……..Ill be the first screaming for accountability. But unlike many of you I believe this is a WAR and that in wars things have to be done to win. Sometimes those things are unpleasant but still they must be done to win.

Quote from GWB in his address to congress after 9/11:

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success.

The problem with your claim that the system is working is very simple. I don’t think anyone but the blindest partisans actually think that this reversal would have taken place if Republicans still ruled the House and Senate.

Jim,
Which is why the system includes the opportunity to vote one party out of power in either or both houses every two years. Ultimately if the party in power doesn’t provide oversight of itself, then the voters do it for them.

That spending millions and perhaps billions of dollars was very simply an exercise in “PISSING ON THE CONSTITUION” and that GWB danced around the White HOUSE in Glee at the thought that he was pulling the wool over the eyes of the American People he swore to protect.

I see. Hmmm. Why did’nt I think of that. I guess I should Subscribe to The LEFT’s owners manual to Right Wing Conspiracy Theories.

I wonder why the LEFT didnt scream so loudly when Clinton in 1994 said hey, not only can we listen in now but we can also search you and your possessions if we even “think” not have probable cause but “suspect” you are guilty of something???

Oh I know. Its because Hillary was a lawyer and she couldnt possibly PISS ON THE CONSTITUTION. (AFter all if were going to throw out conspiracies I have to throw out the rights favorite…..YOU know that Hillary and not BILL was actually in charge of the USA) ONLY NON lawyer politicians do that.

Gotta say I love the conspiracy theories you guys fling around. They never stop amazing me. Its no wonder hollywood never runs out of material.

I did say that the idea that security was compromised by revelation of the program was hogwash. Surveillance could have been (and probably was) going on through legally conducted investigations and any would-be terrorist, if that individual or group were a credible threat (unlike the group arrested in Miami), would conduct themselves as though that were the case.

The existence of the program and its necessity were never at issue. It’s oversight and accountability, and the White House has fought tooth and nail against any being accountable to anyone. Without accountability, the program’s effectiveness, or lack thereof, can never be guaged, a serious concern with the massive fiscal waste reported over the last few years. Without oversight, Congress and the people have no basis to trust the administration’s claims on the program. Considering that the Administration ordered extralegal tapping for 4 years before the program was exposed while claiming the exact opposite; that AG Gonzales still claims it was all legal, implying they could do it again; and that the jury’s still out on exactly what the DoJ’s “concession” means, mistrust is not just understandable, it’s called for.

GWB and gang are just going to do the same thing back to the dems over the next two years.

Don In Canada. You shoot down your own argument that the effectiveness of the wiretaps have been shot down and then you say no one knows what goes on besides a few people. So if no one knows what goes on besides a few people then how do you know they are ineffective???

The problem with your claim that the system is working is very simple. I don’t think anyone but the blindest partisans actually think that this reversal would have taken place if Republicans still ruled the House and Senate.

But the administration doesn’t want that and has fought tooth and nail against it. Why? To paraphrase one of their favorite tag lines, if they’re not doing anything wrong, what’s there to worry about?

Aside from the fact that for four years they led the American people to believe they were playing by the established rules, the ones they knew they were breaking all along. They broke the law and after 4 years playing innocent, they got caught and have been playing damage/spin control ever since. Gonzales’ claims of the program’s legality, repeated again today, aside, retroactive immunity for the program’s activities under S.2453 wouldn’t have been necessary, otherwise.

In that light, and considering their established track record of selective use of fact and spin (i.e. ongoing changes of Iraq justifications), and considering that the executive continues to demonstrate that it feels that the other 2 branches of governemnt are deficient, irrelevant or existing at their convenience, it’s perfectly reasonable to ask what else the adminsitration has going on.

The American political experiment was predicated on mistrust of government.

No screaming necessary.

IN addition the telephone numbers of as of yet unused cell phones were also put on the list.

The NSA wiretaps were solely and almost exclusively for cell phone calls from 1 time used cell phones. Rather pointless to get a warrant to tap a phone that will never be used a second time.

But thats okay…….keep screaming…..Were getting used to it.

That said, there’s been one thing unmentioned since this story broke. It’s only after Risen and Lichtblau let the cat out of the bag that the ‘grave necessity’ line came into play, not to mention the near heroic efforts on the part of the WH to retroactively legalize a program they claimed was legal from the start (after they’d been caught with their hands in the cookie jar). Before that, from November ’01 forward, there was an ongoing series of denials by Bush and the Administration (or strong implications of denial, for the parsers) that any domestic surveillance would be conducted outside of FISA provisions, ’cause that would be wrong.

Pardon my skepticism, but with the WH’s track record of making ‘concessions’ while hedging their bets (or covering their butts), the question should be what have they got on the back burner that they’re willing to take the hit on this.

The effectiveness of the Secret NSA wiretaps was that they were SECRET.

Now that its out in the open, the details laid bare to every terrorists the effectiveness of these wiretaps is diminished as the bad guys find new ways to go around them.

Putting the nsa taps back in the fisa courts hands is a smart move by the administration. It takes the fight out of it and puts the ball in the democrats court who would have loved for Bush to continue to defend them so they could use one more thing against them in the upcoming elections.

Don’t you understand this is all political manuevering by the Republicans to try and keep as much power as possible and to try and minimize the fallout from the war. The republicans are quite effetively putting………and this is funny……..the war into the Democrats hands and by election 2008 the democrats will be defending their actions on this war while the republicans sit back and lash out at them for being inept bunglers.

Remember Vietnam? Remember basically it was JFK and LBJ that escalated the war then came to the realization it could not be won. Nixon was elected and suddenly it was NIXON’s WAR. The Dems did it to the republicans and now the Republicans are going to do it back to the Democrats.

Fair enough. Although I was not accusing you (mostly because I don’t know you) of claiming that we were or are or might be or whatever on the verge of dictatorship, I guess you are. Okay. To my point of view, this is just evidence that we are not.

Do we have a disaster of a president. You bet, and I am disgusted by it. Do we live under threat of totalitarianism? Uhh, don’t think so.

But I suppose we’ll see in 2008. If we wake up with President for Life Bush I guess you will have been proven right and I will have been proven the fool. However, I don’t remember the last election going south, do you? And what about all those claims that the election was sure to be rigged?

As a life-long Democrat, I find it offensive to think that only Democrats can win fair elections.

I’ve gotten off the subject, kinda, but hopefully you get my point. We may have an underachieving electorate in the US, but those of us who do vote do so diligently and ethically. And we elected Democrats.