Comments on: The Vietnamization of the Iraq War http://themoderatevoice.com/10309/the-vietnamization-of-the-iraq-war/ An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right Sun, 22 Nov 2009 23:08:02 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: GreenDreams http://themoderatevoice.com/10309/the-vietnamization-of-the-iraq-war/comment-page-1/#comment-44188 GreenDreams Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:24:38 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/the-vietnamization-of-the-iraq-war/#comment-44188 Shaun, I guess I would have said poignant, but pungent works too. Occupations don't work. The key -and fatal- similarity is that we can't tell a fighter from a civilian unless they put on a uniform or are carrying a gun. And since we adamantly support the rights of citizens to 'bear arms', even that doesn't tell us whether that Shi'ite, Sunni or Kurd is an "enemy combatant" or one of the newly "liberated". The "insurgents" live there. They can wait us out, 4 years, 12 or 20. And they will. I'm not getting much traction here, but the military option is really the least effective tool we have if we really want to create a stable nation in Iraq rather than a "failed state". Our current BS line is to blame the Iraqis for failing (militarily) to "stand up." How disingenuous can we get? The world's biggest, best and toughest military cannot establish order. We think a 4 year old military with poor weapons (that we gave them), poor command and control, corrupt from the top down and infiltrated by militias can do better? It's not just motivation. I believe it simply cannot be won militarily, like Vietnam. We can win all the battles but lose the war. We can throw 542,000 troops at it, go at it hard for 12 years and still lose, miserably. That's the lesson of Vietnam. Shaun, I guess I would have said poignant, but pungent works too. Occupations don’t work. The key -and fatal- similarity is that we can’t tell a fighter from a civilian unless they put on a uniform or are carrying a gun. And since we adamantly support the rights of citizens to ‘bear arms’, even that doesn’t tell us whether that Shi’ite, Sunni or Kurd is an “enemy combatant” or one of the newly “liberated”. The “insurgents” live there. They can wait us out, 4 years, 12 or 20. And they will.

I’m not getting much traction here, but the military option is really the least effective tool we have if we really want to create a stable nation in Iraq rather than a “failed state”.

Our current BS line is to blame the Iraqis for failing (militarily) to “stand up.” How disingenuous can we get? The world’s biggest, best and toughest military cannot establish order. We think a 4 year old military with poor weapons (that we gave them), poor command and control, corrupt from the top down and infiltrated by militias can do better? It’s not just motivation.

I believe it simply cannot be won militarily, like Vietnam. We can win all the battles but lose the war. We can throw 542,000 troops at it, go at it hard for 12 years and still lose, miserably. That’s the lesson of Vietnam.

]]> By: Shaun Mullen http://themoderatevoice.com/10309/the-vietnamization-of-the-iraq-war/comment-page-1/#comment-44142 Shaun Mullen Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:54:21 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/the-vietnamization-of-the-iraq-war/#comment-44142 Both observations are very astute, and while I believe that seasoned commanders in the field in Iraq as well as many troopers understand intangibles like motivation, the policy makers do not, which is where the Vietnamization comparison becomes so pungent. I was reminded the other day that when the statue of Saddam came down in Firdos Square in Baghdad on April 9, 2003, there was boisterous cheering. When the American flag went up, there was silence. When it was replaced by the Iraqi flag, there was boisterous cheering again. That should have been a teaching moment for the U.S., especially so early in the war. It wasn't. Both observations are very astute, and while I believe that seasoned commanders in the field in Iraq as well as many troopers understand intangibles like motivation, the policy makers do not, which is where the Vietnamization comparison becomes so pungent.

I was reminded the other day that when the statue of Saddam came down in Firdos Square in Baghdad on April 9, 2003, there was boisterous cheering. When the American flag went up, there was silence. When it was replaced by the Iraqi flag, there was boisterous cheering again.

That should have been a teaching moment for the U.S., especially so early in the war. It wasn’t.

]]> By: grognard http://themoderatevoice.com/10309/the-vietnamization-of-the-iraq-war/comment-page-1/#comment-44126 grognard Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:18:59 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/the-vietnamization-of-the-iraq-war/#comment-44126 The two wars are similar in that we have an administration, like the Johnson administration, that has made predictions and claims of success that have not been fulfilled. After repeated mistake the public is skeptical of any new strategy, as it was during the Vietnam war after Tet. The war itself is different, the Vietnamese were fighting for an end to foreign “imperialist� domination and paid a very high price for liberation. Obviously we are in a civil war in Iraq where both sides are using gruesome measures of retaliation for getting revenge. The Iraqi government dominated by Shiites will in fact not be overly concerned about Sunni casualties when they fully take over, either by turning a blind eye to militia reprisals or using various ministries to recreate a Saddam era police state where Sunnis live in fear of their lives. Vietnam was going to be unified after the war was over, this country will never be unified no matter what we do. The two wars are similar in that we have an administration, like the Johnson administration, that has made predictions and claims of success that have not been fulfilled. After repeated mistake the public is skeptical of any new strategy, as it was during the Vietnam war after Tet. The war itself is different, the Vietnamese were fighting for an end to foreign “imperialist� domination and paid a very high price for liberation. Obviously we are in a civil war in Iraq where both sides are using gruesome measures of retaliation for getting revenge. The Iraqi government dominated by Shiites will in fact not be overly concerned about Sunni casualties when they fully take over, either by turning a blind eye to militia reprisals or using various ministries to recreate a Saddam era police state where Sunnis live in fear of their lives. Vietnam was going to be unified after the war was over, this country will never be unified no matter what we do.

]]> By: Kim Ritter http://themoderatevoice.com/10309/the-vietnamization-of-the-iraq-war/comment-page-1/#comment-44123 Kim Ritter Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:11:49 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/the-vietnamization-of-the-iraq-war/#comment-44123 Shaun - I believe the reasons we failed in Vietnam and are failing in Iraq are similar, but not necessarily due to military equipment. Imo, the reasons are motivational. The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong believed in the cause they were fighting for to the point that they lived in filthy tunnels underground for years-even operating on their wounded there. We can't fathom that kind of motivation. In contrast the South Vietnamese gov't we were supporting was weak and corrupt, and didn't inspire the same loyalty in its followers. The same may be true of the Iraqi army- we can give them helicopters, fighter jets and bombs, but that will not make them believe in national unity enough to put aside their sectarian divisions. The fact that most of the promised Iraqi divisions failed to show up for Operation Forward Together is another indication that the desire to build a strong,national,unified Iraq just isn't there. Shaun – I believe the reasons we failed in Vietnam and are failing in Iraq are similar, but not necessarily due to military equipment. Imo, the reasons are motivational. The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong believed in the cause they were fighting for to the point that they lived in filthy tunnels underground for years-even operating on their wounded there. We can’t fathom that kind of motivation. In contrast the South Vietnamese gov’t we were supporting was weak and corrupt, and didn’t inspire the same loyalty in its followers.

The same may be true of the Iraqi army- we can give them helicopters, fighter jets and bombs, but that will not make them believe in national unity enough to put aside their sectarian divisions. The fact that most of the promised Iraqi divisions failed to show up for Operation Forward Together is another indication that the desire to build a strong,national,unified Iraq just isn’t there.

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