Comments on: My President Makes Me Want To Do Drugs http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/ An Internet hub with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, indies, centrists, moderates, and right Sun, 27 May 2012 19:41:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Jeff http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-43940 Jeff Mon, 15 Jan 2007 22:33:56 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-43940 You all may as well stop this conversation. CS Stanley understands "negotiations" to mean what the conservative/neocon practice has been the last 6 years. To negotiate with you means you do it my way or you get pummeled. (You do have a choice, see?). And he accurately sees the Iranian response to such "negotiating" will be to tell us to F-off because they can. To the rest of us, negotiating means compromising, giving-getting, finding common ground and all the rest of that touchy-feely San Francisco wussy sort of stuff. CS will never understand it so you may as well leave him alone. You all may as well stop this conversation. CS Stanley understands “negotiations” to mean what the conservative/neocon practice has been the last 6 years. To negotiate with you means you do it my way or you get pummeled. (You do have a choice, see?). And he accurately sees the Iranian response to such “negotiating” will be to tell us to F-off because they can.
To the rest of us, negotiating means compromising, giving-getting, finding common ground and all the rest of that touchy-feely San Francisco wussy sort of stuff. CS will never understand it so you may as well leave him alone.

]]> By: GreenDreams http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-43130 GreenDreams Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:57:48 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-43130 CStanley, we remained engaged with both China and Russia despite much more forthright declarations that they wanted to "bury" us. Our strategic interest in the Middle East is obvious. Military engagement with Iran would be even more stupid than that in Iraq. But I won't bother to debate this with you, because, as I've said before, you can't see our resourcefulness can be beyond military resources. So caught up in the utterly male worldview of power and combat. I don't think you have ever seriously considered what I've raised repeatedly. We have spent $70,000 per Iraqi family to try to win this militarily. That's more than a lifetime of income for most Iraqis. I believe the military option was and is the worst possible approach when you have that level of resources. We could have offered the Iraqis so much more than anyone else was offering, and the same is true for Iran. We could actually <em>lead</em>, rather than trying constantly to <em>defeat</em>. CStanley, we remained engaged with both China and Russia despite much more forthright declarations that they wanted to “bury” us. Our strategic interest in the Middle East is obvious. Military engagement with Iran would be even more stupid than that in Iraq. But I won’t bother to debate this with you, because, as I’ve said before, you can’t see our resourcefulness can be beyond military resources. So caught up in the utterly male worldview of power and combat. I don’t think you have ever seriously considered what I’ve raised repeatedly. We have spent $70,000 per Iraqi family to try to win this militarily. That’s more than a lifetime of income for most Iraqis. I believe the military option was and is the worst possible approach when you have that level of resources. We could have offered the Iraqis so much more than anyone else was offering, and the same is true for Iran. We could actually lead, rather than trying constantly to defeat.

]]> By: Kim Ritter http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-43031 Kim Ritter Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:35:54 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-43031 CS" I guess my view of reality differs from yours. If it were our word against Iran’s, the whole world would believe us? You can certainly say that our credibility problem is largely Bush’s fault, but it’s still the reality we have to live with." Which is exactly why we have to engage with countries that we don't like. That is what the world expects of us, and it would help restore our credibility. Of course, we also have to work to repair the damage that has already been done with our allies, so that hopefully , they would believe us. I think the bigger problem would come, as it usually does, with countries who are our political allies, but who have economic ties or dependencies ---France, USSR- with Iran. Yes, its difficult, but there's no excuse not to try. Isn't that what we are saying about the quagmire in Iraq? "Is it useful that we’re constantly speculating here on what the Bush administration might be covertly doing? " Not really, but its interesting and fun!:) CS” I guess my view of reality differs from yours. If it were our word against Iran’s, the whole world would believe us? You can certainly say that our credibility problem is largely Bush’s fault, but it’s still the reality we have to live with.”

Which is exactly why we have to engage with countries that we don’t like. That is what the world expects of us, and it would help restore our credibility. Of course, we also have to work to repair the damage that has already been done with our allies, so that hopefully , they would believe us. I think the bigger problem would come, as it usually does, with countries who are our political allies, but who have economic ties or dependencies —France, USSR- with Iran. Yes, its difficult, but there’s no excuse not to try. Isn’t that what we are saying about the quagmire in Iraq?

“Is it useful that we’re constantly speculating here on what the Bush administration might be covertly doing? ”

Not really, but its interesting and fun!:)

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-43028 CStanley Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:32:15 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-43028 I think we're talking about two different things here. You want to keep arguing against me as though I see NO value in diplomacy at all. If any of the things were logical consequences of the US captitulating and sitting down for negotiations with Iran under its terms (that it should have the greenlight for a nuclear program) then your comments would make sense. Instead, you are just making a wish list. I should also mention, I agree with <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/30/AR2006073000546.html" rel="nofollow">Kissinger's assessment </a>of the difference of the current situation and the one with Red China in the 70's. I note that he is saying that a lot of diplomatic back and forth took place which led to a shift in ideology of the Chinese govt BEFORE Nixon got on the plane. I assume that there is not enough of this type of behind the scenes diplomacy going on right now, and I do think that is a serious mistake. I think the "Axis of Evil" speech was a mistake, and that instead of making it clear that we advocate regime change, we should make it clear that it is a change in attitude, not necessarily leadership, that is required. But that is different from saying, as Webb did yesterday, that Bush should just hop on the jet to Tehran. I think we’re talking about two different things here. You want to keep arguing against me as though I see NO value in diplomacy at all. If any of the things were logical consequences of the US captitulating and sitting down for negotiations with Iran under its terms (that it should have the greenlight for a nuclear program) then your comments would make sense. Instead, you are just making a wish list.

I should also mention, I agree with Kissinger’s assessment of the difference of the current situation and the one with Red China in the 70′s. I note that he is saying that a lot of diplomatic back and forth took place which led to a shift in ideology of the Chinese govt BEFORE Nixon got on the plane. I assume that there is not enough of this type of behind the scenes diplomacy going on right now, and I do think that is a serious mistake. I think the “Axis of Evil” speech was a mistake, and that instead of making it clear that we advocate regime change, we should make it clear that it is a change in attitude, not necessarily leadership, that is required. But that is different from saying, as Webb did yesterday, that Bush should just hop on the jet to Tehran.

]]> By: egrubs http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-43021 egrubs Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:10:55 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-43021 1 less US soldier could die 2 less US soldiers could die 3 less US soldiers could die 4 less US soldiers could die 5 less US soldiers could die 6 less US soldiers could die 7 less US soldiers could die 8 less US soldiers could die 9 less US soldiers could die 10 less US soldiers could die 11 less US soldiers could die 12 less US soldiers could die 13 less US soldiers could die 14 less US soldiers could die 15 less US soldiers could die 16 less US soldiers could die 17 less US soldiers could die 18 less US soldiers could die 19 less US soldiers could die 20 less US soldiers could die ... 1 less Iraqi could die 2 less Iraqi could die 3 less Iraqi could die 4 less Iraqi could die 5 less Iraqi could die 6 less Iraqi could die 7 less Iraqi could die 8 less Iraqi could die 9 less Iraqi could die 10 less Iraqi could die 11 less Iraqi could die 12 less Iraqi could die 13 less Iraqi could die 14 less Iraqi could die 15 less Iraqi could die 16 less Iraqi could die 17 less Iraqi could die 18 less Iraqi could die 19 less Iraqi could die 20 less Iraqi could die ... Some form of common ground could be found where previously unknown. Some form of military advantage could be gained where previously unknown. Some form of psychoanalytical understanding of the situation could be gained where previously unknown. Some form or piece of knowledge OF WHICH WE WERE PREVIOUSLY UNAWARE could be made aware. Our standing in the eyes of our people could increase. Our standing in the eyes of the world could increase. A standoff, in which small wars are faught and fewer people die, could be established due to the talks falling out. A standoff, in which small wars are faught and fewer people die, could be established due to successes in the talks. Oil prices could remain stable. Oil prices could go down. We could, intelligently, realize that we should develop a better national energy policy in which we are less reliant on oil. Butterflies could flap their wings in Iran and some poor kid in the United States could go to Harvard. ... You're right. It's impossible to find grains of sand on the beach. This. Is. Absurb. 1 less US soldier could die
2 less US soldiers could die
3 less US soldiers could die
4 less US soldiers could die
5 less US soldiers could die
6 less US soldiers could die
7 less US soldiers could die
8 less US soldiers could die
9 less US soldiers could die
10 less US soldiers could die
11 less US soldiers could die
12 less US soldiers could die
13 less US soldiers could die
14 less US soldiers could die
15 less US soldiers could die
16 less US soldiers could die
17 less US soldiers could die
18 less US soldiers could die
19 less US soldiers could die
20 less US soldiers could die
…

1 less Iraqi could die
2 less Iraqi could die
3 less Iraqi could die
4 less Iraqi could die
5 less Iraqi could die
6 less Iraqi could die
7 less Iraqi could die
8 less Iraqi could die
9 less Iraqi could die
10 less Iraqi could die
11 less Iraqi could die
12 less Iraqi could die
13 less Iraqi could die
14 less Iraqi could die
15 less Iraqi could die
16 less Iraqi could die
17 less Iraqi could die
18 less Iraqi could die
19 less Iraqi could die
20 less Iraqi could die
…

Some form of common ground could be found where previously unknown.

Some form of military advantage could be gained where previously unknown.

Some form of psychoanalytical understanding of the situation could be gained where previously unknown.

Some form or piece of knowledge OF WHICH WE WERE PREVIOUSLY UNAWARE could be made aware.

Our standing in the eyes of our people could increase.

Our standing in the eyes of the world could increase.

A standoff, in which small wars are faught and fewer people die, could be established due to the talks falling out.

A standoff, in which small wars are faught and fewer people die, could be established due to successes in the talks.

Oil prices could remain stable.

Oil prices could go down.

We could, intelligently, realize that we should develop a better national energy policy in which we are less reliant on oil.

Butterflies could flap their wings in Iran and some poor kid in the United States could go to Harvard.

…

You’re right. It’s impossible to find grains of sand on the beach.

This. Is. Absurb.

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-43005 CStanley Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:45:31 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-43005 egrubs, My interpretation of your response is that you have decided to call my position absurd because you can't defend yours. You state that you can't list a single small gain that might be possible because you don't have a degree in international diplomacy; I'm not asking for a complete analysis or dissertation, just a defense of your opinion. Instead of saying that your idea that diplomacy is inherently good regardless of the situation, I'm asking you why? Is it good even in situations where it is doomed to fail? You may disagree with me that the current situation fits that profile, but if your opinion is that there is no situation where it ever makes sense to put conditions on sitting down to negotiate, then "That belief is so absurd I hardly know from where to begin." egrubs,
My interpretation of your response is that you have decided to call my position absurd because you can’t defend yours. You state that you can’t list a single small gain that might be possible because you don’t have a degree in international diplomacy; I’m not asking for a complete analysis or dissertation, just a defense of your opinion. Instead of saying that your idea that diplomacy is inherently good regardless of the situation, I’m asking you why? Is it good even in situations where it is doomed to fail? You may disagree with me that the current situation fits that profile, but if your opinion is that there is no situation where it ever makes sense to put conditions on sitting down to negotiate, then “That belief is so absurd I hardly know from where to begin.”

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42986 CStanley Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:17:07 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42986 <blockquote>Kim Ritter: My guess is that if there was an assasination, you’d have to condemn them in public and show their hypocrisy to the world. They would suffer world-wide condemnation, and it might help our position in the UN.</blockquote> I guess my view of reality differs from yours. If it were our word against Iran's, the whole world would believe us? You can certainly say that our credibility problem is largely Bush's fault, but it's still the reality we have to live with. <blockquote>We’d have to work with our allies as best as possible to issue sanctions or as we are doing now, use a naval blockade. But isn’t that useless to imagine things that they haven’t done,lol? </blockquote>Again, which allies would be willing to work with us? And on whether or not it's useful to speculate, I don't know. Is it useful that we're constantly speculating here on what the Bush administration might be covertly doing?

Kim Ritter:
My guess is that if there was an assasination, you’d have to condemn them in public and show their hypocrisy to the world. They would suffer world-wide condemnation, and it might help our position in the UN.

I guess my view of reality differs from yours. If it were our word against Iran’s, the whole world would believe us? You can certainly say that our credibility problem is largely Bush’s fault, but it’s still the reality we have to live with.

We’d have to work with our allies as best as possible to issue sanctions or as we are doing now, use a naval blockade. But isn’t that useless to imagine things that they haven’t done,lol?

Again, which allies would be willing to work with us? And on whether or not it’s useful to speculate, I don’t know. Is it useful that we’re constantly speculating here on what the Bush administration might be covertly doing?

]]> By: egrubs http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42983 egrubs Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:09:33 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42983 <blockquote>What I’m saying is that diplomacy can only work if we can identify mutual interests between ourselves and the other party.</blockquote> What about the possibility that diplomacy could be used -TO- identify mutual interests? What about the possibility that diplomacy could be used -TO- advance our interests against a hostile partywith whom we have no mutual interests at all? What about the possibility that diplomacy could be used -TO- come to some acceptable mutual distrust where we don't have to kill each other? <blockquote>But if you can’t tell me any specific small gains that you think are possible, then it would seem to me that the whole rationale would be symbolism (am I wrong?)</blockquote> Is this petty? Why do I need to point out the grain of sand on the beach, or the drop of water in the ocean? How can it be possible that small gains are -IMPOSSIBLE-? Do you want me to just do an exhaustive, laundry list of tiny, irrelevent things that could come of this so that you may hem and haw and pick and choose which you prefer, when by no means do I have a degree in international relations? How. Can. You. Possibly. Believe. That. No. Small. Gains. Of. Any. Kind. May. Come. From. Diplomacy? That belief is so absurd I hardly know from where to begin.

What I’m saying is that diplomacy can only work if we can identify mutual interests between ourselves and the other party.

What about the possibility that diplomacy could be used -TO- identify mutual interests? What about the possibility that diplomacy could be used -TO- advance our interests against a hostile partywith whom we have no mutual interests at all? What about the possibility that diplomacy could be used -TO- come to some acceptable mutual distrust where we don’t have to kill each other?

But if you can’t tell me any specific small gains that you think are possible, then it would seem to me that the whole rationale would be symbolism (am I wrong?)

Is this petty? Why do I need to point out the grain of sand on the beach, or the drop of water in the ocean? How can it be possible that small gains are -IMPOSSIBLE-? Do you want me to just do an exhaustive, laundry list of tiny, irrelevent things that could come of this so that you may hem and haw and pick and choose which you prefer, when by no means do I have a degree in international relations?

How. Can. You. Possibly. Believe. That. No. Small. Gains. Of. Any. Kind. May. Come. From. Diplomacy?

That belief is so absurd I hardly know from where to begin.

]]> By: Kim Ritter http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42975 Kim Ritter Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:55:24 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42975 CS-I don't think you can go into any negotiations thinking like that, because there are always possibilities of a negative outcome. You'd have to ask for concrete signs of their intentions, and not just take their word for it, and also lay out meaningful consequences for them and for the region if they didn't live up to their pledge. By meaningful- it would have to be some consequence that we could actually cause to happen-not just tough talk. But then you would offer carrots as well- investment in their flagging oil production, for example. Mostly, we would learn more of their intent. By isolating them, we learn nothing. If we ever did have to go to war, we would have the same kind of flawed intel that hurt us with Iraq. My guess is that if there was an assasination, you'd have to condemn them in public and show their hypocrisy to the world. They would suffer world-wide condemnation, and it might help our position in the UN. We'd have to work with our allies as best as possible to issue sanctions or as we are doing now, use a naval blockade. But isn't that useless to imagine things that they haven't done,lol? CS-I don’t think you can go into any negotiations thinking like that, because there are always possibilities of a negative outcome. You’d have to ask for concrete signs of their intentions, and not just take their word for it, and also lay out meaningful consequences for them and for the region if they didn’t live up to their pledge. By meaningful- it would have to be some consequence that we could actually cause to happen-not just tough talk. But then you would offer carrots as well- investment in their flagging oil production, for example. Mostly, we would learn more of their intent. By isolating them, we learn nothing. If we ever did have to go to war, we would have the same kind of flawed intel that hurt us with Iraq.

My guess is that if there was an assasination, you’d have to condemn them in public and show their hypocrisy to the world. They would suffer world-wide condemnation, and it might help our position in the UN. We’d have to work with our allies as best as possible to issue sanctions or as we are doing now, use a naval blockade. But isn’t that useless to imagine things that they haven’t done,lol?

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42973 CStanley Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:52:01 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42973 egrubs, Sorry if I'm too dense to get your obtuse comments. I'm guessing you are saying that I'm setting up the argument so that it goes in my favor. Let me try this a different way. You and Kim seem to think that I'm opposed to diplomacy because I think that withholding it is a way to punish those that we distrust. I never said that though. What I'm saying is that diplomacy can only work if we can identify mutual interests between ourselves and the other party. Note that I also didn't say that the interests all need to coincide, that we have to like or completely trust each other, etc. (so not, "all or nothing".) But if you can't tell me any specific small gains that you think are possible, then it would seem to me that the whole rationale would be symbolism (am I wrong?) And I'm pointing out that the value of that is extremely limited in the current situation (not saying that it's not important for the US to rebuild its image, but that a token gesture would be seen for what it is anyway.) And I'm trying to point out the downside to such an initiative could be much worse than the downside of not getting that token of symbolism. egrubs,
Sorry if I’m too dense to get your obtuse comments. I’m guessing you are saying that I’m setting up the argument so that it goes in my favor. Let me try this a different way. You and Kim seem to think that I’m opposed to diplomacy because I think that withholding it is a way to punish those that we distrust. I never said that though. What I’m saying is that diplomacy can only work if we can identify mutual interests between ourselves and the other party. Note that I also didn’t say that the interests all need to coincide, that we have to like or completely trust each other, etc. (so not, “all or nothing”.)

But if you can’t tell me any specific small gains that you think are possible, then it would seem to me that the whole rationale would be symbolism (am I wrong?) And I’m pointing out that the value of that is extremely limited in the current situation (not saying that it’s not important for the US to rebuild its image, but that a token gesture would be seen for what it is anyway.)

And I’m trying to point out the downside to such an initiative could be much worse than the downside of not getting that token of symbolism.

]]> By: egrubs http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42969 egrubs Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:35:36 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42969 And if I build a domino set, I can make things fall exactly the way I want too. But I don't try to argue that way. And if I build a domino set, I can make things fall exactly the way I want too.

But I don’t try to argue that way.

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42962 CStanley Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:15:08 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42962 OK, Kim, but for all of those symbolic gains, consider that there could be actual negatives that outweigh them. Say for instance we sit down and Iran says that it will give full support to the Maliki government. Say we actually have intelligence to indicate that they are backing a plan to assassinate him (I'm just posing a hypothetical of course...but for the purpose of the thought exercise, assume that this is hard intelligence that there is little reason to doubt, and then that it actually happens.) Now we've allowed Tehran to go on record giving themselves plausible deniability for a terribly destabilizing act. Our symbolic negotiations haven't really helped the situation then, have they? OK, Kim, but for all of those symbolic gains, consider that there could be actual negatives that outweigh them. Say for instance we sit down and Iran says that it will give full support to the Maliki government. Say we actually have intelligence to indicate that they are backing a plan to assassinate him (I’m just posing a hypothetical of course…but for the purpose of the thought exercise, assume that this is hard intelligence that there is little reason to doubt, and then that it actually happens.)

Now we’ve allowed Tehran to go on record giving themselves plausible deniability for a terribly destabilizing act. Our symbolic negotiations haven’t really helped the situation then, have they?

]]> By: Kim Ritter http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42955 Kim Ritter Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:54:06 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42955 It shows that we are making the effort to include them in discussions that concern the outcome of conflicts in the region. It lessens tensions that have gotten backs up (ours and theirs). It shows that we have an interest in a lasting peace for the region. We have little or no control over their actions, but we do have control over our responses. What good does it do to bring us to the brink of a war that we are woefully unprepared for? Remember TR's "speak softly but carry a big stick". We are shouting, but have already yielded too much real power to be effective, by keeping our army mired down in Iraq. It shows that we are making the effort to include them in discussions that concern the outcome of conflicts in the region. It lessens tensions that have gotten backs up (ours and theirs). It shows that we have an interest in a lasting peace for the region. We have little or no control over their actions, but we do have control over our responses. What good does it do to bring us to the brink of a war that we are woefully unprepared for? Remember TR’s “speak softly but carry a big stick”. We are shouting, but have already yielded too much real power to be effective, by keeping our army mired down in Iraq.

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42953 CStanley Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:53:00 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42953 Was there a point there, egrubs, or did you hit the send button too soon? Was there a point there, egrubs, or did you hit the send button too soon?

]]> By: egrubs http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42948 egrubs Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:46:49 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42948 <blockquote>“All or nothing� is your phrase, not mine, so please don’t put words in my mouth.</blockquote> <blockquote>I’m asking what could be gained at all?</blockquote>

“All or nothing� is your phrase, not mine, so please don’t put words in my mouth.

I’m asking what could be gained at all?

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42944 CStanley Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:40:02 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42944 <blockquote>There may not be much common ground between our countries. But, in our own best interest, we should never decide in advance that we have no common ground. </blockquote> It's not deciding in advance, it's deciding that Iran's actions have already spoken. If they want to verbally make promises that contradict the evidence of their actions, what would that accomplish?

There may not be much common ground between our countries. But, in our own best interest, we should never decide in advance that we have no common ground.

It’s not deciding in advance, it’s deciding that Iran’s actions have already spoken. If they want to verbally make promises that contradict the evidence of their actions, what would that accomplish?

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42943 CStanley Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:38:08 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42943 egrubs, If you could tell me what those small gains might be, then your response might make some sense. "All or nothing" is your phrase, not mine, so please don't put words in my mouth. I'm asking what could be gained at all? egrubs,
If you could tell me what those small gains might be, then your response might make some sense. “All or nothing” is your phrase, not mine, so please don’t put words in my mouth. I’m asking what could be gained at all?

]]> By: Kim Ritter http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42942 Kim Ritter Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:36:45 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42942 Exactly, CS. Good diplomacy creates a common goal by concentrating on mutual self-interest.That is why they helped with the Taliban. When they realized they were on the list for regime change, the cooperation stopped. But for a little while, the Iranians acted in their best interest, which coincided with ours. There may not be much common ground between our countries. But, in our own best interest, we should never decide in advance that we have no common ground. Exactly, CS. Good diplomacy creates a common goal by concentrating on mutual self-interest.That is why they helped with the Taliban. When they realized they were on the list for regime change, the cooperation stopped. But for a little while, the Iranians acted in their best interest, which coincided with ours. There may not be much common ground between our countries. But, in our own best interest, we should never decide in advance that we have no common ground.

]]> By: Shaun Mullen http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42940 Shaun Mullen Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:35:02 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42940 <em>CStanley:</em> Egrubs and Kim have answered much better than I could. I would only add one thing: It will be to Bush's lasting shame (on top of everything else shameful about his administration) if he didn't try to engage Teheran and Damascus. The historians' judgment of his tenure will be cruel in the extreme as it is. CStanley:

Egrubs and Kim have answered much better than I could. I would only add one thing: It will be to Bush’s lasting shame (on top of everything else shameful about his administration) if he didn’t try to engage Teheran and Damascus.

The historians’ judgment of his tenure will be cruel in the extreme as it is.

]]> By: egrubs http://themoderatevoice.com/10235/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/comment-page-1/#comment-42938 egrubs Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:30:37 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/middle-east/my-president-makes-me-want-to-do-drugs/#comment-42938 CS: Is your big argument here, "Since I cannot see how diplolmacy will work, and since I find it immoral to sit down at a table and negotiate with those I dislike on moral grounds, diplomacy should not be used." And you're looking for someone to reply, "If we have diplomatic relations with Iran, they'll pull out of Iraq," which is completely silly. Are we in such an all or nothing world that small gains aren't important any more? That small peaces aren't worth it? That small wars aren't better than large wars? Why are you so enamoured with war? Why are you so distrustful of diplomacy (especially when it hasn't even been attempted)? What is so disgusting about treating people like human beings despite mutual hatred? CS:

Is your big argument here, “Since I cannot see how diplolmacy will work, and since I find it immoral to sit down at a table and negotiate with those I dislike on moral grounds, diplomacy should not be used.”

And you’re looking for someone to reply, “If we have diplomatic relations with Iran, they’ll pull out of Iraq,” which is completely silly.

Are we in such an all or nothing world that small gains aren’t important any more? That small peaces aren’t worth it? That small wars aren’t better than large wars?

Why are you so enamoured with war? Why are you so distrustful of diplomacy (especially when it hasn’t even been attempted)? What is so disgusting about treating people like human beings despite mutual hatred?

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