Comments on: Ode to America http://themoderatevoice.com/10204/ode-to-america/ An Internet hub with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, indies, centrists, moderates, and right Sun, 27 May 2012 19:41:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Mark Olson http://themoderatevoice.com/10204/ode-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-46324 Mark Olson Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:27:52 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/10/miscellaneous/ode-to-america/#comment-46324 At long last, something more of a reply (<a href="http://www.pseudopolymath.com/?p=2003" rel="nofollow">here</a>). At long last, something more of a reply (here).

]]> By: SFB http://themoderatevoice.com/10204/ode-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-42907 SFB Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:04:52 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/10/miscellaneous/ode-to-america/#comment-42907 CStanley and Mark Olson said it first and said it best. I concur with them. But let me add something else, David Schraub. I think it might be worth looking at the public preception of higher education. It is none too good, and the hostility toward the middle of the road US values expressed by so many academics has not helped them to make a case for the value of higher education. There is much more support for vocationally based curricula than for the liberal arts among students and tax payers. My theory is that as the liberal arts have become so one-sidedly anti-American in outlook, the students and the taxpayers find it less and less necessary to support that kind of education. Academics have stood up and supported loud anti-Americanism from people like Ward Churchill, or various others, but very seldom speak out in favor of their country. If the only academics out there support an anti-US line, we are back to the liberal elite losing the support of the majority of voters. See the comments on the religious right more recently posted. CStanley and Mark Olson said it first and said it best. I concur with them.

But let me add something else, David Schraub. I think it might be worth looking at the public preception of higher education. It is none too good, and the hostility toward the middle of the road US values expressed by so many academics has not helped them to make a case for the value of higher education. There is much more support for vocationally based curricula than for the liberal arts among students and tax payers. My theory is that as the liberal arts have become so one-sidedly anti-American in outlook, the students and the taxpayers find it less and less necessary to support that kind of education. Academics have stood up and supported loud anti-Americanism from people like Ward Churchill, or various others, but very seldom speak out in favor of their country. If the only academics out there support an anti-US line, we are back to the liberal elite losing the support of the majority of voters. See the comments on the religious right more recently posted.

]]> By: David Schraub http://themoderatevoice.com/10204/ode-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-42600 David Schraub Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:07:09 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/10/miscellaneous/ode-to-america/#comment-42600 Depends. Is the friend pathologically arrogant? As I wrote, <i>if</i> America's problem was that it didn't think highly of itself, I might be persuaded. But that isn't our flaw (as the villian in <i>Serenity</i> might put it, "Do you know what your sin is...?"). America does not face a lack of institutions, ceremonies, public figures, pomp and circumstance telling how great it is. To act like America is suffering from a lack of positive reinforcement is simply absurd. It does face a dearth of bona fide self-criticism--something we need to do more to remedy. Heaping praise on an already spoiled child is self-defeating--even to a liberal parent. Admittedly, this is no way to sell a product. Fortunately, I plan to go into academia, not sales (and agreeing with people is no way to get tenure!). Depends. Is the friend pathologically arrogant?

As I wrote, if America’s problem was that it didn’t think highly of itself, I might be persuaded. But that isn’t our flaw (as the villian in Serenity might put it, “Do you know what your sin is…?”). America does not face a lack of institutions, ceremonies, public figures, pomp and circumstance telling how great it is. To act like America is suffering from a lack of positive reinforcement is simply absurd. It does face a dearth of bona fide self-criticism–something we need to do more to remedy. Heaping praise on an already spoiled child is self-defeating–even to a liberal parent.

Admittedly, this is no way to sell a product. Fortunately, I plan to go into academia, not sales (and agreeing with people is no way to get tenure!).

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10204/ode-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-42587 CStanley Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:25:28 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/10/miscellaneous/ode-to-america/#comment-42587 LOL, good points, Mark. To again use an analogy to interpersonal relationships, David's post equates to making statements like this to a friend: "I know you feel I've been very critical of you but you see, I have to point out a flaw every time I give you a compliment in order to make sure that I don't feed into your arrogance. I don't feel that I would be doing you any favors by inflating your ego with compliments unbalanced by criticism, because of course I know that you really do aspire to be a good person. Therefore I have to constantly ensure that I point out your weaknesses so that you won't neglect to work on them, as I know you wish to do. I'm sure you can see how this proves that I really do have a good opinion of you overall, because my constant criticism of you only reflects my desire to help you to be the good person you aspire to be!" Yeah, I have conversations like that with friends all the time, don't you? ;-) LOL, good points, Mark. To again use an analogy to interpersonal relationships, David’s post equates to making statements like this to a friend: “I know you feel I’ve been very critical of you but you see, I have to point out a flaw every time I give you a compliment in order to make sure that I don’t feed into your arrogance. I don’t feel that I would be doing you any favors by inflating your ego with compliments unbalanced by criticism, because of course I know that you really do aspire to be a good person. Therefore I have to constantly ensure that I point out your weaknesses so that you won’t neglect to work on them, as I know you wish to do. I’m sure you can see how this proves that I really do have a good opinion of you overall, because my constant criticism of you only reflects my desire to help you to be the good person you aspire to be!”

Yeah, I have conversations like that with friends all the time, don’t you? ;-)

]]> By: Mark Olson http://themoderatevoice.com/10204/ode-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-42560 Mark Olson Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:18:10 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/10/miscellaneous/ode-to-america/#comment-42560 Mr Barnett feels that the negative impressions of America are so ingrained on the left that such a statement (of purely positive things about the country) is something the left is incapable of doing. David, inadvertently or not, perhaps proves his point. Some avuncular advice for Mr Schraub ... don't go into sales. ;) And pointing out or stating what is good is a different matter than "sweeping these things under the rug". Mr Barnett feels that the negative impressions of America are so ingrained on the left that such a statement (of purely positive things about the country) is something the left is incapable of doing. David, inadvertently or not, perhaps proves his point.

Some avuncular advice for Mr Schraub … don’t go into sales. ;)

And pointing out or stating what is good is a different matter than “sweeping these things under the rug”.

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/10204/ode-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-42555 CStanley Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:03:11 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/10/miscellaneous/ode-to-america/#comment-42555 David, Have you ever known a person who had parents that constantly criticized him/her? Parents who felt it was their duty to mold their child by pointing out every fault, rather than helping the child build on strengths? Not a pretty picture, is it? And people who have been raised this way often are cocky, but that's not the same thing as true confidence and positive self-image (in fact it's often a cover for lack of those.) Ironically, this type of parenting is contrary to the liberal parenting model which says that for every criticism of our kids, we ought to be heaping lots of praise. For every rebuke we should give ten compliments. Ironically, though I'm a pretty staunch conservative, I agree with that. People generally flourish when others focus on their strengths rather than their weaknesses, and I believe that holds true for us collectively as a nation as well as for each of us individually. David,
Have you ever known a person who had parents that constantly criticized him/her? Parents who felt it was their duty to mold their child by pointing out every fault, rather than helping the child build on strengths? Not a pretty picture, is it? And people who have been raised this way often are cocky, but that’s not the same thing as true confidence and positive self-image (in fact it’s often a cover for lack of those.) Ironically, this type of parenting is contrary to the liberal parenting model which says that for every criticism of our kids, we ought to be heaping lots of praise. For every rebuke we should give ten compliments. Ironically, though I’m a pretty staunch conservative, I agree with that. People generally flourish when others focus on their strengths rather than their weaknesses, and I believe that holds true for us collectively as a nation as well as for each of us individually.

]]> By: Gray http://themoderatevoice.com/10204/ode-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-42540 Gray Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:13:41 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/10/miscellaneous/ode-to-america/#comment-42540 "Mark Olson, asks if any of his liberal readers can produce a pro-America ode" Not true! What does Mark Olson himself say? "Dean Barret (at Hugh Hewitt’s blog) asks for a ode (by liberals) of love of Nation" So, seriously, do you expect liberals to produce something that was asked for by a blogger at Hugh Hewitts site, really? There's one thing liberals have learned in the past years: Never play according to right wing rules. Never. “Mark Olson, asks if any of his liberal readers can produce a pro-America ode”

Not true! What does Mark Olson himself say?

“Dean Barret (at Hugh Hewitt’s blog) asks for a ode (by liberals) of love of Nation”

So, seriously, do you expect liberals to produce something that was asked for by a blogger at Hugh Hewitts site, really? There’s one thing liberals have learned in the past years: Never play according to right wing rules. Never.

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