” … each of us only has our own little piece of the truth so we should humbly acknowledge that the opinions we’ve based on these perceptions could be incorrect.”

Exactly, CStanley. Well put.

And thanks to Mikkel for his comments, as well, particularly for adding your summary of the perspective of multiple soldiers on the ground. I found it very helpful, and your re-nuancing of “forest for the trees” to be a smart and important distinction in this larger discussion.

I find them to be extremely honest and even handed in what’s going on. Most of them aren’t ignorant and know exactly all the facets of the conflict. Most of em are very proud and optimistic about what they’re doing.

That said reading them makes me more against continuing the war. The reason why is pretty simple: since our specific tactical goals seem to going great but the country is going to hell I have little confidence that there is much we can do. It’s a corallary of the “forest for the trees” where our tactics are great but the strategy is doomed.

Jim S said:
January 10, 2007 at 11:24 pm
I respect our troops. But when it comes to the opinion of the soldier on the ground being superior to civilians, no matter how well informed they might be the phrase “can’t see the forest for the trees� comes to mind.

I agree pretty strongly with that concept (more on that in a minute), but I didn’t really think that was what Pete was getting at. I don’t think he is saying that we should believe the troops’ perspective more than anyone else’s, just that we should acknowledge that each of us only has our own little piece of the truth so we should humbly acknowledge that the opinions we’ve based on these perceptions could be incorrect.

On the issue of perspective of those who’ve experienced something, though, a few pet issues of the left come to mind. Does Cindy Sheehan have more moral authority about her anti-war stance because of the loss of her son? Should the opinions of the 9/11 widows and families have a greater influence on anti-terrorism policies? Should victims of chronic disease be allowed to dictate policy direction on stem cell research? Should women experiencing unwanted pregnancies decide whether or not it is morally acceptable to terminate these pregnancies?

I say that all of these voices should be heard and their interests should be respected, but that they shouldn’t be the absolute decision makers simply by virtue of their experiences.

Forget Rambo and watch Good morning Vietnam. Robin Williams helping the kids in school is more along the lines of what we were doing in Vietnam then Rambo blowing up everything that moved including Water Buffalos. Until you walk a mile in the shoes of a Veteran stop listening to the GD press. They want to sell magazines, newspapers and advertising. Joe soldier teaching Iraqis to read is not going to do that. Accusing marines of killing civilians WILL…….which do you think gets the press?

Im opposed to this war. Was from day one because I fought in a war and I know how ugly they are. But I also advocate getting the job done now that we are there (The initial reason we went there is no longer an issue) or face mindboggling consequences for not getting the job done later. Thats not a talking point……..thats reality.

No, it is the administration that so wants to hide the horror of this war that we can’t even see military funerals. And to glorify Vietnam, where we DID have a million boots on the ground and lost 60,000 American youth, poisoned an entire country with chemical warfare, burned civilians with napalm. pffffft. I’m outahere….

Thank you, Jason, for taking time to clarify my post for other commenters, and to read it for what it actually tried to say.

I don’t have much sympathy for you being misunderstood here, Pete.

Your post implies that the media are losing this war in Iraq, and that those of us who criticize it, without being in the battle, simply don’t know what we’re talking about.

We’ve spent the last 4 years listening to the president’s supporters attack all critics of this war, beginning with Ari Fleisher’s admonition to “Watch what you say, watch what you doâ€? to John Ashcroft telling Senators that their questions were aiding and abetting the enemy and now we’ve got Sean Hannity’s “Enemies of the State”.

In that environment you ask us to “re-learn the value, the honor of discretion”.

What did you think the reaction would be.

The fact is that civilians by and large did sit by and respectfully defer to the wise men of Washington, despite severe misgivings before the war, despite the lack of WMD, despite the discovery of torture, despite the increasing violence and the rise of death squads. The time for discretion is over.

Perhaps I should have asked the soldier his opinion; perhaps I am reading my own through what he did and didn’t say. I don’t know.

To your last point, no one should shut up; all should express opinions, freely, and in doing so, all should be as discrete, as reasoned, as tempered, as possible.

Did you kill any civilians that didn’t deserve to die?

Civilians who sit in the isolated solace of comfortable lives, spitting out stark, black-and-white opinions on what should and shouldn’t be done in Iraq, despite the fact that few of them have ever lived in a war zone or engaged in a firefight for their lives – those civilians should re-learn the value, the honor, of discretion

You infer a lot from your little anecdote. It’d be easier to assume you aren’t just filling in your own opinion, if you’d bothered to ask the soldier what his was.

In any case, if by learning the value, the honor, of discretion you mean the rest of us should just shut the hell up and applaud, I’ll remind you that one doesn’t earn the right to an opinion only by becoming a soldier any more than one becomes a moral person only by joining the clergy.

’cause for many (maybe not your friend, I don’t know) being for or against the war ain’t about Iraq, liberty or none of that, it’s about supporting “their guy”, and “their party” and if their guy had a different opinion…hell, they’d back it too.

Can I get a AMEN?

In part, yes. You’re also right, Mr. Jordan, that there are many civilians who speak thoughtfully about Iraq. But there are some — one friend of mine, in particular, comes to mind, who is neither a media type nor a blogger. Just opinionated. And again, that’s OK. What’s frustrating is not his opinion, but his lack of listening to those who have other perspectives, especially those who have informed perspectives. It is the refusal to listen and think that worries me, whether that comes from the White House or civilians or certain categories of civilians, or even soldiers themselves.

Civilians who sit in the isolated solace of comfortable lives, spitting out stark, black-and-white opinions on what should and shouldn’t be done in Iraq, despite the fact that few of them have ever lived in a war zone or engaged in a firefight for their lives – those civilians should re-learn the value, the honor, of discretion.

Pete, this kind of post is why I read TMV. The commenters above who misrepresent what you said in order to avoid their own implication by your critique are revealing. You’re not saying that those who didn’t serve shouldn’t comment. You said that those who don’t see the whole picture (and NONE of us do) should not pretend that they do by adopting extremist, purist, judgmental positions.

Debate about Iraq right now doesn’t deserve the name “debate”. All we have is the Bush administration saying that anyone who disagrees is a “cut and run” coward and Sheehan-esque anti-war activists saying that anyone who disagrees with them is a “warmonger” or worse. Practically no one seems to have the integrity to admit their own possible fallibility, the limits to their own knowledge, or even the possibility of legitimate disagreement.

They are wrong. Your post is the exception to their tragic rule.

The press however was busy portraying every death and screaming at how we are killing maiming and destroying Vietnamese in the name of Freedom. They hated the war and by right they hated the people. I sense that in many opinions I read today.

People are starting to hate the Iraqis because of 10,000 or 20,000 terrorists. They want to hate the Iraqis and leave them to fend for themselves because the PRESS is telling us things are not going good. Well gee things usually dont go all that good in a WAR.

I know a lot of friends, relatives and aquaintainces who say the opposite….They are the soldiers on the plane you talked too.

SHUT UP YOU LIAR!!!! Scream the left, the antiwar, the Bush Haters. And because they hate Bush, Republicans, and WAR they have now become Iraqi haters and anything anyone says to the contrary are Stupid, idiotic, neocon warmongers.

I watched it happen in Vietnam, and Im watching it happen today in Iraq.