Comments on: More on The Execution http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/ An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right Mon, 23 Nov 2009 01:00:41 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Mikkel http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/comment-page-1/#comment-41459 Mikkel Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:59:43 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/04/war/iraq/more-on-the-execution/#comment-41459 Er my post didn't take for some reason. Anyway the gist of it was that symbolically every single step -- from selection of the crimes to try him for to the timing of the execution to the government officials that signed off on it to the people in the room -- was a big F-you to Sunnis and Kurds. It was completely political message and nearly every single Iraqi I've read has pointed this out. Er my post didn’t take for some reason.

Anyway the gist of it was that symbolically every single step — from selection of the crimes to try him for to the timing of the execution to the government officials that signed off on it to the people in the room — was a big F-you to Sunnis and Kurds. It was completely political message and nearly every single Iraqi I’ve read has pointed this out.

]]> By: Mikkel http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/comment-page-1/#comment-41458 Mikkel Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:56:46 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/04/war/iraq/more-on-the-execution/#comment-41458 PatHMV I find it ironic that you (properly) say that the focus should be on the message that the Iraqi people get out of it while ignoring what that actual message is. As it's been pointed out many places: Saddam killed hundreds of thousands but was convicted and killed for a specific crime against PatHMV I find it ironic that you (properly) say that the focus should be on the message that the Iraqi people get out of it while ignoring what that actual message is. As it’s been pointed out many places:

Saddam killed hundreds of thousands but was convicted and killed for a specific crime against

]]> By: marc http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/comment-page-1/#comment-41414 marc Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:26:39 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/04/war/iraq/more-on-the-execution/#comment-41414 Re "It was a gross act of injustice" - that's bunk. A murder was hanged. Where is the injustice in that? I say you're just piling on. Re “It was a gross act of injustice” – that’s bunk. A murder was hanged. Where is the injustice in that?

I say you’re just piling on.

]]> By: SFB http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/comment-page-1/#comment-41406 SFB Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:09:58 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/04/war/iraq/more-on-the-execution/#comment-41406 PatHMV is correct, IMHO. This is a civil war, and the execution of enemies in time of war is pretty common. Executing tyrants is much safer than putting them in prison for 'life', though life sentences in most European countries are not really life, but more like 20 years. The argument that this is making the west as bad as Hussein is, I think spurious. The execution of a dictator and a small number of his highest ranking officials is vastly different from the large scale killing of non-combatants, civilians, etc. How many thousands did Hussein and his regime kill? His death is both justice, and a means of keeping him from getting out of prison and killing more folks, though apparently that conecpt is much more obvious to many Iraqis than it is to many western intellectuals. Before hearing more calls for the West to intervene in Darfur, or any other genocital situations, perhaps we should all consider how poorly the US has fared in its attempts to bring western democractic values and governance to most of the places where it has tried to do this through military means. How do people think we can force people who are killing each other to stop and make nice? This is a war, and ultimately, one side or the other will need to win. Likewise, it might be worthwhile for the western intellectual community to ask itself why abortion on demand is acceptible, but the societal equivilant of abortion, the execution of killers and tyrants, is not acceptible. Sorry, but justice involves both retribution and rehabilitation, or it is not complete. Some persons can be rehabilitated and pose no threat to others. Some cannot be, and should not be allowed to prey on others ever again. Mr. Hussein in in the latter category. It seems to me that no one has addressed this as nicely as Mark Twain in _Tom Sawyer_, where he noted that there was an outpouring of mis-directed sympathy for the killer, Injun Joe, and folks who didn't want him to hang. Twan was correct - those folks were misguided. Justice is served by keeping killers from having an opportunity to ever kill again, and for surrendering their lives as partial payment for the life they have taken. You may not subscribe to that concept of justice, but I think that it is distinctly possible that a majority to the ordinary people in the world do accept the death penalty as a just punishment. PatHMV is correct, IMHO. This is a civil war, and the execution of enemies in time of war is pretty common. Executing tyrants is much safer than putting them in prison for ‘life’, though life sentences in most European countries are not really life, but more like 20 years.

The argument that this is making the west as bad as Hussein is, I think spurious. The execution of a dictator and a small number of his highest ranking officials is vastly different from the large scale killing of non-combatants, civilians, etc. How many thousands did Hussein and his regime kill? His death is both justice, and a means of keeping him from getting out of prison and killing more folks, though apparently that conecpt is much more obvious to many Iraqis than it is to many western intellectuals.

Before hearing more calls for the West to intervene in Darfur, or any other genocital situations, perhaps we should all consider how poorly the US has fared in its attempts to bring western democractic values and governance to most of the places where it has tried to do this through military means. How do people think we can force people who are killing each other to stop and make nice? This is a war, and ultimately, one side or the other will need to win. Likewise, it might be worthwhile for the western intellectual community to ask itself why abortion on demand is acceptible, but the societal equivilant of abortion, the execution of killers and tyrants, is not acceptible. Sorry, but justice involves both retribution and rehabilitation, or it is not complete. Some persons can be rehabilitated and pose no threat to others. Some cannot be, and should not be allowed to prey on others ever again. Mr. Hussein in in the latter category. It seems to me that no one has addressed this as nicely as Mark Twain in _Tom Sawyer_, where he noted that there was an outpouring of mis-directed sympathy for the killer, Injun Joe, and folks who didn’t want him to hang. Twan was correct – those folks were misguided. Justice is served by keeping killers from having an opportunity to ever kill again, and for surrendering their lives as partial payment for the life they have taken. You may not subscribe to that concept of justice, but I think that it is distinctly possible that a majority to the ordinary people in the world do accept the death penalty as a just punishment.

]]> By: PatHMV http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/comment-page-1/#comment-41321 PatHMV Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:28:12 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/04/war/iraq/more-on-the-execution/#comment-41321 As unlikely as it may seem at the time, the vanquished can indeed become powerful again. Central and South America are replete with tails of arrested, imprisoned conspirators who emerged from their captivity to lead new, more successful, coup attempts. Power can switch from one group to another with remarkable rapidity, in some circumstances. Executing tyrants and despots is not merely justice but self-protection. And if that lady who lost 5 sons feels better because she pumped 5 bullets into a lifeless corpse, I do not begrudge her that, nor do I condemn her for it. As unlikely as it may seem at the time, the vanquished can indeed become powerful again. Central and South America are replete with tails of arrested, imprisoned conspirators who emerged from their captivity to lead new, more successful, coup attempts. Power can switch from one group to another with remarkable rapidity, in some circumstances.

Executing tyrants and despots is not merely justice but self-protection.

And if that lady who lost 5 sons feels better because she pumped 5 bullets into a lifeless corpse, I do not begrudge her that, nor do I condemn her for it.

]]> By: Sam http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/comment-page-1/#comment-41315 Sam Thu, 04 Jan 2007 20:53:08 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/04/war/iraq/more-on-the-execution/#comment-41315 I've never heard that description of revenge before, but I really like it. Very apt. I’ve never heard that description of revenge before, but I really like it. Very apt.

]]> By: joec http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/comment-page-1/#comment-41307 joec Thu, 04 Jan 2007 20:14:34 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/04/war/iraq/more-on-the-execution/#comment-41307 Hitchens' Slate article has this quote from George Orwell from an essay he wrote reporting on the post WW-II occupation in Germany: "Properly speaking, there is no such thing as revenge. Revenge is an act which you want to commit when you are powerless and because you are powerless: as soon as the sense of impotence is removed, the desire evaporates also. Who would not have jumped for joy, in 1940, at the thought of seeing S.S. officers kicked and humiliated? But when the thing becomes possible, it is merely pathetic and disgusting. It is said that when Mussolini's corpse was exhibited in public, an old woman drew a revolver and fired five shots into it, exclaiming, "Those are for my five sons!" It is the kind of story that the newspapers make up, but it might be true. I wonder how much satis- faction she got out of those five shots, which, doubtless, she had dreamed years earlier of firing. The condition of her being able to get near enough to Mussolini to shoot at him was that he should be a corpse." Now U.S. soldiers are in the middle of this 1,500 year old Sunni v. Shiite conflict. Hitchens’ Slate article has this quote from George Orwell from an essay he wrote reporting on the post WW-II occupation in Germany:
“Properly speaking, there is no such thing as revenge.
Revenge is an act which you want to commit when you are
powerless and because you are powerless: as soon as
the sense of impotence is removed, the desire evaporates
also.
Who would not have jumped for joy, in 1940, at the thought
of seeing S.S. officers kicked and humiliated? But when
the thing becomes possible, it is merely pathetic and
disgusting. It is said that when Mussolini’s corpse was
exhibited in public, an old woman drew a revolver and
fired five shots into it, exclaiming, “Those are for my
five sons!” It is the kind of story that the newspapers
make up, but it might be true. I wonder how much satis-
faction she got out of those five shots, which, doubtless,
she had dreamed years earlier of firing. The condition
of her being able to get near enough to Mussolini to shoot
at him was that he should be a corpse.”

Now U.S. soldiers are in the middle of this 1,500 year old Sunni v. Shiite conflict.

]]> By: PatHMV http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/comment-page-1/#comment-41301 PatHMV Thu, 04 Jan 2007 20:07:26 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/04/war/iraq/more-on-the-execution/#comment-41301 As I've said before, and say again today over at <a href="http://stubbornfacts.us/gwot/iraq/saddams_execution" rel="nofollow">Stubborn Facts</a>, the Western reaction to Saddam's execution is just immaterial. The execution wasn't for our benefit, or we would have tried him. It was for the benefit of the Iraqis. While few people are reporting on it, it appears so far that the Iraqis just don't have the same sensitivities as Westerners do when it comes to executions. They know exactly what a butcher he was, so they just don't care that much about whether he was taunted a bit at the end. As I’ve said before, and say again today over at Stubborn Facts, the Western reaction to Saddam’s execution is just immaterial. The execution wasn’t for our benefit, or we would have tried him. It was for the benefit of the Iraqis. While few people are reporting on it, it appears so far that the Iraqis just don’t have the same sensitivities as Westerners do when it comes to executions. They know exactly what a butcher he was, so they just don’t care that much about whether he was taunted a bit at the end.

]]> By: Sam http://themoderatevoice.com/10059/more-on-the-execution/comment-page-1/#comment-41292 Sam Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:25:12 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/2007/01/04/war/iraq/more-on-the-execution/#comment-41292 Was anyone seriously expecting something different with the execution being handled by the Iraqi's? This is how things get done in the middle east. If anyone can offer up an example of this being an exception and not the rule I'm more than willing to listen and learn. Was anyone seriously expecting something different with the execution being handled by the Iraqi’s? This is how things get done in the middle east. If anyone can offer up an example of this being an exception and not the rule I’m more than willing to listen and learn.

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